D&D 5E (2014) Single class Hexblade - missing something?

[Iry]

I generally avoid using spell slots in combat when I can save them for the other two pillars, unless it was a really clutch spell like saving someone from death, or disabling a mini-boss. Hex at Dawn is a pretty solid tactic, though.

 

[Todd Roybark]

you can make a cheese hexblade that is still an EB AB Hex type but... then why be a hexblade). But to be able to perform well in that role, almost all their invocations will be liked to their fighting... so your "bag of tricks", the endless at will abilities, is preeeety shallow.

When Miyomoto Musashi was late to his duel with Kojiro, the Demon of the Western Provinces, and then slew Kojiro with a carved oar that was slightly longer then Kojiro's legendary very large sword, some thought that gauche.

Musashi of course did not care. In Musashi's view the point of being a warrior was defeating your foe, not defeating your foe only using one technique.

Longsword, Eldritch Blast, or Great Axe, or any combination one can imagine, if the Hexblade is standing and his foes are dead...then cheesy lives...and the refined combat artist has a very fine, and well regarded funeral.

Thirsting Blade is an At Will Invocation, of sorts. A warlock can't just pick up any weapon and get two attacks after all.

Repelling Blast, Relentless Hex, Eldritch Smite, these seem to be great Tools, to me.
No save 10' pushes through EB has dismounted many a rider in my experience, or dominated a catwalk encounter in Sharn.

This is even before considering spells. The 4th level spells in XGE for Warlocks:
Charm Monster, Shadow of Moil, Summon Greater Demon, Elemental Bane, Sickening Radiance...any one of those spells is a solid use of a Warlocks spell slot.

Also come November, a Warlock is likely going to be able to select a feat for an extra Invocation.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think with warlocks, using a spell slot is similar to a Fighter using Action Surge - a special move for special fights.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I'm a bit obsessed about this class. I know that a hexblade multiclass can be a very strong build, but I really would like to play it single class. But... I have issues.

The Hexblade seems to be, on the surface, the classical "Gish" - the fighter/mage that blends swordplay and sorcery to win the day.

...snip...

aaaaaand with the hexblade it doesn't seem to quite work,

..snip...

I guess you could build an EB based hexblade... but that's more of a hexcheese really). Furthermore, it is easier to build them with a few more utility invocations.

So... what to do without multiclassing?

I have three things for you. (I know it is a wall of text but I assure you it does contain options and serious feedback. I am not concise in my attempt to cover it all but I know there is chance no on will read it. Sorry.)

1. Your last thought is correct, the Hexblade is actually better as a pact of tome or pact of chain eldritch blast build. Pact of the the Blade looks good for Hexblade but it is actually a trap. Some of the features are redundant to pact of the blade. Only the second half of Hex Worrier applies to a melee weapon and that is useful for attacks of opportunity when used for eldritch blast builds. More to the point, medium armor, shields, and the shield spell do not provide adequate defense to be a "gish" nor do they allow for the flexibility you expect from a warlock since your poring all your invocations into trying to make it work. The Eldritch blast Hexblade gets the defensive advantage of range which is often huge since GMs tend to favor and perhaps over use melee thugs and creatures and you only need one spell and one invocation to bring it online making the rest of your design some the to play with and enjoy.

2. Its often thought of as cheese, but it really is a solid way to play a warlock. Hiding in Darkness with Devils sight, gives advantage on attacks for offense and Opponents disadvantage on attacks against you for defense based on "Unseen Attackers and Targets" PHB p194-195). Wizards double downed on this with level 4 warlock only spell Shadow of Moil from Xanathar's Guide to Everything which is and improved version of this without the requirement for Devil's sight to free up an invocation. Using your first spell slot to activate this in combat and your second as a backup incase you are hit and fail your concentration save. This means Hexblades spell list is largely a trap with the exception for the Blink + hex option. Shield Spell especially, since your better off taking hits and multiple saves then recasting darkness if fail, than you are casting shield loosing your second spell slot immediately and no backup out the gate meaning a hit the second round of battle could leave you defenseless. There are a few exceptions with extreme high damage you can't save but you generally don't know the damage before you determine hit, but if you just saw an ally hammered you might have a guess.

3. I am on board with making a "Gish" warlock but I ran across the same issues. I ended up making a homebrew to get a subclass that would fix the issue I had. Part of the problem is that warlocks are Multi-attribute dependent and need access heavy armor proficiency for Ring Mail to mitigate that, every warlock subclass to date has a defensive ability at level 6 because they are the only caster class that can't use spells reliably for defense. If you cast counter spell and shield once each your done as caster so they are traps. Magic initiate warlock is a huge help and so a Rod of the Pact Keeper together doubling your spell slots. The Darkness and shadow of moil both make you unseen which help instead of counterspell since many spells require "a target you can see" and shield through enemies having disadvantage versus targets they can't see. The same with Hex + Blink. The problem is that really ties down your flexibly. As you said, in concept your looking at a flexible fighter who uses a variety of spells in combat to enhance and have fun but the level 6 defense abilities don't have but one charge up front, don't recover on short rests, and/or don't scale for greater defense at higher levels the way other casters getting higher spell slots and more defensive spell options can. I suggest, asking your GM to adapt a 6th level warlock from anther patron with at least 2 charges at lvl 6, +1 at 11 and 17. Then make at recharge at least one on short rest so that if your GM does put put your party on the spot with mutiiple short rests and small encounters you can actually do as its expected for warlocks to do.

... Adding to that last point, if you do multi-class to make your Gish work with Ring mail, Cha and Constitution, I recommend the Fighter subclass Battle master, because the Superiority Dice also restore on short rest. Then assuming your GM actually uses short rests and multiple encounter days some times you will have a bit more to help you be the team anchor when your party expect you to with Evasive Footwork and Parry.

 

[Ancalagon]

I have three things for you. (I know it is a wall of text but I assure you it does contain options and serious feedback. I am not concise in my attempt to cover it all but I know there is chance no on will read it. Sorry.)

thank you for the input!

1. Your last thought is correct, the Hexblade is actually better as a pact of tome or pact of chain eldritch blast build.

I know and it bothers me so much.... The lack of defense is an issue.

2. Its often thought of as cheese, but it really is a solid way to play a warlock. Hiding in Darkness with Devils sight, gives advantage on attacks for offense and Opponents disadvantage on attacks against you for defense based on "Unseen Attackers and Targets" PHB p194-195). Wizards double downed on this with level 4 warlock only spell Shadow of Moil from Xanathar's Guide to Everything which is and improved version of this without the requirement for Devil's sight to free up an invocation. Using your first spell slot to activate this in combat and your second as a backup incase you are hit and fail your concentration save.

I really find that the darkness trick is not just cheesy, it can impede other PCs so it's... rude? Shadow of moil though is awesome.

3. I am on board with making a "Gish" warlock but I ran across the same issues. I ended up making a homebrew to get a subclass that would fix the issue I had. Part of the problem is that warlocks are Multi-attribute dependent and need access heavy armor proficiency for Ring Mail to mitigate that, every warlock subclass to date has a defensive ability at level 6 because they are the only caster class that can't use spells reliably for defense.
snip
but the level 6 defense abilities don't have but one charge up front, don't recover on short rests, and/or don't scale for greater defense at higher levels the way other casters getting higher spell slots and more defensive spell options can.

I never thought of it that way.

... Adding to that last point, if you do multi-class to make your Gish work with Ring mail, Cha and Constitution, I recommend the Fighter subclass Battle master, because the Superiority Dice also restore on short rest. Then assuming your GM actually uses short rests and multiple encounter days some times you will have a bit more to help you be the team anchor when your party expect you to with Evasive Footwork and Parry.

Been there, done that but with an eldrich knight built - more spells, more cantrips, more gish Played at level 8 in a year long but somewwhat slow PbP game.

Parry, as does the rune knight with the hill giant rune, pairs really well with armor of agathys.

 

[ClaytonCross]

-snip-
Been there, done that but with an eldrich knight built - more spells, more cantrips, more gish Played at level 8 in a year long but somewwhat slow PbP game.

Parry, as does the rune knight with the hill giant rune, pairs really well with armor of agathys.

Your welcome.

I love warlocks but like I said, the don't quite get there for Pact of the Blade. Its a trap. I think the subclass I made is better for a warlock pact of Blade with the exception of a support damage with a reach weapon which as you said prevents the Darkness + Devil's sight option because you would blind allies. Improved Pact of the blade let you use a longbow or heavy crossbow but your not going to be as good as a ranger, arcane archer, or an Eldritch blast build Warlock. Then again your not much of a gish if you have to fight at range anyway.

When it comes down to it Eldritch Knight is the "gish" most people are really looking for. It and Rune Knight are both good options but really playing Eldritch Knight as a single class does a better job of reaching the goal most people are trying to achieve with Pact of the Blade and it even gets the weapon you can summon. On top of that it has better health and fewer concentration spells and proficiency with constitution save for when you do need to maintain concentration. The result is you don't have to pump constitution and you can grab strength or dexterity and intelligence for a far easier build than Pact of the Blade warlocks without heavy armor which basically require Charisma, Dexterity, and constitution to function leaving nothing to play with. Eldritch Knights get more than Double warlocks spell slots with access to shield spell, absorb elements, mage armor, protection form evil and good, counter spell, dispel magic, stone skin, and otiluke's resilient sphere on top of heavy armor and shields. They can easily be a Tank Gish. You could just go all damage and murder with your magic and it would still work with your 5 attacks and abundance of feats instead of invocations your have to spend to attempt to be ok at the job.

But I digress. Some pint up frustration, I am venting here. lol Sorry.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I know and it bothers me so much....

It's so sad when players feel characters need to be absolutely optimised. They miss out on so much.

 

[ClaytonCross]

It's so sad when players feel characters need to be absolutely optimised. They miss out on so much.

I don't feel the have to optimized but I do like to be good as something. People always for get that to have a max/min character that has to be a min. On top of that I played a warlock scout instead of rogue, a cleric tank, druid crowd control, and a warlock tank.... These are not the "optimized" but it is hard to play a melee character with crap defense and its not fun to get invested in a character then have it die. Poor offense and deficiencies are fun but I still want to be a hero and do heroic things and survive as a minimum. I think your both taking a talk about basic function an serviceability and twisting into more than it is.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't feel the have to optimized but I do like to be good as something.

Good enough is good enough.

The trouble with optimisers is binary thinking. Anything that isn't the absolute top is garbage.

hard to play a melee character with crap defense

A character with medium armour and shield proficiency, and d8 HD (along with a bunch of other defensive tricks) does not have "crap defence". Not as good as someone else does not equal "crap". And they are not going to die.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Good enough is good enough.

The trouble with optimisers is binary thinking. Anything that isn't the absolute top is garbage.

A character with medium armour and shield proficiency, and d8 HD (along with a bunch of other defensive tricks) does not have "crap defence". Not as good as someone else does not equal "crap". And they are not going to die.

The Hexblade subclass sells its self as paladin melee damage gish, but it doesn't have the magic, damage, or defense at the same time that a paladin or artificer does. If your building a character thinking your going to hold the line for your party and thats what you and they expect, then you show up and your the first to die... its sad when your whole party is disappointed in you... not fun.

"along with a bunch of other defensive tricks" meaning what? Most warlocks get one trick at level 6 (except for hexblades which are on only subclass with shields). Meaning levels 1-5 they have two spell slots. They don't get any thing else. Most of their spells are concentration. So they have one at any time with the exceptions of counter spell and misty step.

The whole concept of an Pact of the blade is not Optimizing as I stated before. If you want optimize as a gish, play a Eldritch Knight or Blade-song Wizard. People pick Warlock because of its flexibility and the unique role play warlock invocations provide. I would point out that the problem, the OP had was that "magic will give the character some utility and diversity in non-combat situation - a well used invisibility or suggestion spell is very useful. That is the theory of how a well functioning gish should work" meaning that they are not saying they don't work in combat. The OP was saying they end up using every spell and invocation to survive combat and that they are afraid to do anything outside of combat out of fear of death. That's how I read it. They are looking to "optimize" a little breathing room so that they play with the class more. Pact of the Blade uses tons of eldritch invocations to get basic things like extra attack which most melee fighters get for free. The Eldritch blast builds only really need the Agonizing blast invocation and then you can play as damage support hiding 110ft away using all your other invocations for non-combat fun.

The same with my Celestial Parton Pact of the Chain Warlock Tank...sure its not optimal, yes It could use eldritch blast and agonsing blast and be more effective at damage.... but I wanted to be a wolverine that hits you with noisy as bells rings in your head instead of claws... because I think it fun. I also played a Pact of the Tome Eldritch blasting scout... that right I was an "Eldritch Ranger" without the multi-class. It was not optimal but it worked and it was fun. I have tried to build and play a pact of the blade warlock 3 times and every time I come to the same conclusion. It is possible but the investment takes all the fun options away to hold my weight with the promise of being a melee damage character to my party. I could relax on that if we have at solid tank or at least another melee fighter, but no I was in group with bard, a sorcerer, a ranger, and rogue. I was the line. So I made Cleric tank who could not heal, Again not optimal but I did hold the line so no one complained because I did my job and we had fun.

I am curious what your build would look like. Show me good enough. Please.