Sir Robilar
First Post
So, we had our playtest last Saturday and I finally got around to write up a report.
Who?
Our group of me the DM + 4 players. We're all in our mid to late 20s. All of us have been playing Pathfinder in the last years and 3.5 before that.
What happened?
The group chose the goblin cave to the south of the ravine. They battled 12 goblins, sending another 6 to sleep. Then they were surprised by another 6 goblins and the ogre. After the goblins managed to down the fighter and the cleric with ranged attacks, the others entered suicide mode and were subsequently killed by the ogre. TPK! We still had three hours of game time so we started again, switching around characters.
The second group scouted around for a while, avoided the kobold cave but found the owlbear cave to the west. They entered, battled the grey ooze with Ray of Frost (poor thing was never fast enough to reach them), then 9 rats (one burning hands was all they needed) and finally the owlbear which was also killed with a combination of Ray of frost + ranged attacks. We had lots of fun but it was getting late so we stopped.
Things we liked:
- The „skill system“ that basically doesn’t really give you a skill system but instead explains how to resolve certain actions in the game. This forced us to really think about how things played out in the world instead of thinking about any one skill’s sub system resolution during gaming. I especially adore the Hazard mechanic. In fact I am hoping that they won't change too much here (except for some clarifications maybe, see below).
- The language. It has a basic D&D feel, is clear and concise and words are prose, not game terms.
- No opportunity attacks! Fights feel very mobile and were enjoyed by everyone.
- It feels like D&D! The only things that rubbed me (and only me from our group) the wrong way regarding feel were the Moradin clerics spell that lets him heal as part of his action + the multitude of powerful at-will spells that the wizard got. Both players enjoyed these aspects of their class however and I see how gameplay improves with the changes.
- Simplicity of the monsters. I was looking at the cave rat’s stat block and happily thinking by myself „hell yes, that one line is all it needs!“.
- Simplicity of action economy. This was what I liked the best. No more „with this minor/swift/whatever action I draw my sword, then I do this and that as another x action, then use my standard action to…“. The way it is in these rules is simple and I love it. The only thing I was missing in the rules was a sentence saying something like „the DM is the arbiter about how many small things like picking up a weapon or drawing a sword your character can do realistically in 6 seconds“
Things I’m unsure about:
- I read the ability check rules two times but I was still sometimes unsure when to do an ability check and when not. Probably this is only because I’m so used to 3.5 though where checks are done more often. After adventuring for awhile one of the players said "I wan't to try out the skill system some more" after I had let them succeed in several things without checks.
- Is there any disadvantage when fighting in shadows, e.g. when everyone fights in moonlight without any artificial light sources involved? I couldn’t find this in the rules.
- With the new movement rules, everyone can spring attack. I liked it but some of the players found it weird. I don’t know if it was just that they were used to it being different though.
- The damage an improvised weapon does felt too high. Our cleric used a halfling corpse as an improvised weapon, throwing it at the owlbear each round. Since the owlbear couldn’t move (due to ray of frost) the cleric picked it up again, walked away and threw it at the owlbear again. It just felt unappropriate that he did a d10 damage each round with this tactic (which also looked a little stupid in the theatre of the mind).
Things we didn’t like:
- Rogues were the most confusing class as written. Things were spread over several locations (e.g. the skills) and it was all a little fiddly. The rogue player was the only one who needed an explanation for his class.
- Rogues can take 10 on their trained feats which sounds cool on paper. However, we found the „oh I got 16 again“ result on anything below 11 boring in play. It would have been better IMO or rat least more fun, if the rogue would get advantage on all his trained skills.
- critical hits that only do max damage. Just not as rewarding as double damage. We liked however that you don't need a confirmation roll.
- I found the rules about how Perception works a little confusing. It seemed that there are several systems, depending on whether you’re searching for a hidden item, a hidden creature, a trap or you are tracking. Plus, these rules are spread over several places. I thought it could be simpler if it was all in one place. Also I found it confusing that one of the classes has a bonus to „listen things“ whereas others have Perception.
- I'm having a problem with stealth. Maybe I’m just interpreting it wrong, but: What if there is a rogue, a goblin and a stool in a room. The stool could cover about one quarter of the rogue’s body. First round, the goblin attacks the rogue. Ouch! Then the rogue walks behind the stool and uses his action to hide. The goblin fails his Wis check. Now it’s the goblin’ turn again. He saw that the rogue walk behind the stool but since he didn’t make his Wis check, he doesn’t know where the rogue is. He can’t do anything (?). Next it’s the rogue’s turn again. He jumps from his stool and attacks!
Is this how it is meant to be? Or should the DM in this case decide that the goblins knows that the rogue must be behind the stool and thus the rogue doesn’t get any advantage? This happened several times in play, with the rogue usually jumping behind corners just to jump out again next round. I found it strange that the monster wouldn’t understand where he is. Maybe we were playing it wrong though and I’d be thankful for everyone's input.
- Lots of discussion about the healing mechanic in our group. It was mostly disliked. On the one hand I appreciate of the hit dice mechanic because it makes mundane healing more powerful. But still, I was missing an flavor explanation for why you could only benefit from one medical kit per level per day. At one point the rogue player actually asked the cleric (in-character) if he could patch him up again with some bandages. The cleric player answered „sorry, I don’t know how to explain it in-character so I’ll just tell you: I can’t because you already used your hit die today“. This should never happen.
- One of the players found that hit dice are a re-fluffing of the wand of cure light wounds that each group carries around in 3.5 - however, it is not as useful. Most of our group disliked the full heal through long rests. I am again missing an in-game explanation of what is happening. How can a character's scratches and minor wounds disappear over night? It seems worst when a character has been brought up form below 0 before the long rest though. I would prefer if it was harder to get from below 0 to the 1 hit point you need to rest. The „it takes 2d6 hours to recover from a life-threatening blow“ is strange. Why not „you need magical healing or a successful heal check + 2d6 hours to recover to 1 hit point“?
-Ray of frost is too powerful! Our party easily killed the owlbear with it in a fight that felt very anti-climatic. A strong creature like an owlbear should be able to free his frozen legs with a Strength check or something. I found the notion here in the forum that the owlbear should have used the Dodge action and lie prone on the floor, but neither feels appropriate for the creature.
All in all I am feeling happy and believe that they are on the right track with this game!
Who?
Our group of me the DM + 4 players. We're all in our mid to late 20s. All of us have been playing Pathfinder in the last years and 3.5 before that.
What happened?
The group chose the goblin cave to the south of the ravine. They battled 12 goblins, sending another 6 to sleep. Then they were surprised by another 6 goblins and the ogre. After the goblins managed to down the fighter and the cleric with ranged attacks, the others entered suicide mode and were subsequently killed by the ogre. TPK! We still had three hours of game time so we started again, switching around characters.
The second group scouted around for a while, avoided the kobold cave but found the owlbear cave to the west. They entered, battled the grey ooze with Ray of Frost (poor thing was never fast enough to reach them), then 9 rats (one burning hands was all they needed) and finally the owlbear which was also killed with a combination of Ray of frost + ranged attacks. We had lots of fun but it was getting late so we stopped.
Things we liked:
- The „skill system“ that basically doesn’t really give you a skill system but instead explains how to resolve certain actions in the game. This forced us to really think about how things played out in the world instead of thinking about any one skill’s sub system resolution during gaming. I especially adore the Hazard mechanic. In fact I am hoping that they won't change too much here (except for some clarifications maybe, see below).
- The language. It has a basic D&D feel, is clear and concise and words are prose, not game terms.
- No opportunity attacks! Fights feel very mobile and were enjoyed by everyone.
- It feels like D&D! The only things that rubbed me (and only me from our group) the wrong way regarding feel were the Moradin clerics spell that lets him heal as part of his action + the multitude of powerful at-will spells that the wizard got. Both players enjoyed these aspects of their class however and I see how gameplay improves with the changes.
- Simplicity of the monsters. I was looking at the cave rat’s stat block and happily thinking by myself „hell yes, that one line is all it needs!“.
- Simplicity of action economy. This was what I liked the best. No more „with this minor/swift/whatever action I draw my sword, then I do this and that as another x action, then use my standard action to…“. The way it is in these rules is simple and I love it. The only thing I was missing in the rules was a sentence saying something like „the DM is the arbiter about how many small things like picking up a weapon or drawing a sword your character can do realistically in 6 seconds“
Things I’m unsure about:
- I read the ability check rules two times but I was still sometimes unsure when to do an ability check and when not. Probably this is only because I’m so used to 3.5 though where checks are done more often. After adventuring for awhile one of the players said "I wan't to try out the skill system some more" after I had let them succeed in several things without checks.
- Is there any disadvantage when fighting in shadows, e.g. when everyone fights in moonlight without any artificial light sources involved? I couldn’t find this in the rules.
- With the new movement rules, everyone can spring attack. I liked it but some of the players found it weird. I don’t know if it was just that they were used to it being different though.
- The damage an improvised weapon does felt too high. Our cleric used a halfling corpse as an improvised weapon, throwing it at the owlbear each round. Since the owlbear couldn’t move (due to ray of frost) the cleric picked it up again, walked away and threw it at the owlbear again. It just felt unappropriate that he did a d10 damage each round with this tactic (which also looked a little stupid in the theatre of the mind).
Things we didn’t like:
- Rogues were the most confusing class as written. Things were spread over several locations (e.g. the skills) and it was all a little fiddly. The rogue player was the only one who needed an explanation for his class.
- Rogues can take 10 on their trained feats which sounds cool on paper. However, we found the „oh I got 16 again“ result on anything below 11 boring in play. It would have been better IMO or rat least more fun, if the rogue would get advantage on all his trained skills.
- critical hits that only do max damage. Just not as rewarding as double damage. We liked however that you don't need a confirmation roll.
- I found the rules about how Perception works a little confusing. It seemed that there are several systems, depending on whether you’re searching for a hidden item, a hidden creature, a trap or you are tracking. Plus, these rules are spread over several places. I thought it could be simpler if it was all in one place. Also I found it confusing that one of the classes has a bonus to „listen things“ whereas others have Perception.
- I'm having a problem with stealth. Maybe I’m just interpreting it wrong, but: What if there is a rogue, a goblin and a stool in a room. The stool could cover about one quarter of the rogue’s body. First round, the goblin attacks the rogue. Ouch! Then the rogue walks behind the stool and uses his action to hide. The goblin fails his Wis check. Now it’s the goblin’ turn again. He saw that the rogue walk behind the stool but since he didn’t make his Wis check, he doesn’t know where the rogue is. He can’t do anything (?). Next it’s the rogue’s turn again. He jumps from his stool and attacks!
Is this how it is meant to be? Or should the DM in this case decide that the goblins knows that the rogue must be behind the stool and thus the rogue doesn’t get any advantage? This happened several times in play, with the rogue usually jumping behind corners just to jump out again next round. I found it strange that the monster wouldn’t understand where he is. Maybe we were playing it wrong though and I’d be thankful for everyone's input.
- Lots of discussion about the healing mechanic in our group. It was mostly disliked. On the one hand I appreciate of the hit dice mechanic because it makes mundane healing more powerful. But still, I was missing an flavor explanation for why you could only benefit from one medical kit per level per day. At one point the rogue player actually asked the cleric (in-character) if he could patch him up again with some bandages. The cleric player answered „sorry, I don’t know how to explain it in-character so I’ll just tell you: I can’t because you already used your hit die today“. This should never happen.
- One of the players found that hit dice are a re-fluffing of the wand of cure light wounds that each group carries around in 3.5 - however, it is not as useful. Most of our group disliked the full heal through long rests. I am again missing an in-game explanation of what is happening. How can a character's scratches and minor wounds disappear over night? It seems worst when a character has been brought up form below 0 before the long rest though. I would prefer if it was harder to get from below 0 to the 1 hit point you need to rest. The „it takes 2d6 hours to recover from a life-threatening blow“ is strange. Why not „you need magical healing or a successful heal check + 2d6 hours to recover to 1 hit point“?
-Ray of frost is too powerful! Our party easily killed the owlbear with it in a fight that felt very anti-climatic. A strong creature like an owlbear should be able to free his frozen legs with a Strength check or something. I found the notion here in the forum that the owlbear should have used the Dodge action and lie prone on the floor, but neither feels appropriate for the creature.
All in all I am feeling happy and believe that they are on the right track with this game!
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