Size change- What is it worth?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Are the advantages and disadvantages of size categories already factored in?

In other words, if you were designing smaller or larger versions of player races for your campaign, what LA adjustment would you make, if any?

My personal guess is -1LA per step down, and +1LA per step up in size.

For example, a Large sized Elf would be +1LA. A Large sized Halfling would be +2LA.

 

[Jack Simth]

For Small/Medium, it's pretty balanced to use the size change stuff under improving monsters (in reverse, to go from medium to small) on PC races. More than that, though, and you start getting into fairly serious min/maxing territory; ESPECIALLY if you let a size down be a negative level adjustment. Going from small to tiny is -4 Str, +2 Dex, +1 AC (size), +1 attack, +4 to Hide (stacks with the +4 for being Small in the first place), -4 to grapple checks (but not to escape artist), a handful of other things, and a loss of being able to target someone in the square next to you with a melee weapon (except reach weapons, I think). So the Tiny Halfling has a much better hide score, two points better AC (that applies to touch), lower damage from strength, lower strength-based attack bonus.... but makes a really devastating Rogue, especially with Weapon Finess, or even just a shortbow.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Those rules...they're in MM1, right?

I just need Small to Medium (and reverse) and Medium to Large (and reverse).

 

[Kafkonia]

Those rules...they're in MM1, right?

Those rules are indeed in the MM1 -- the changes that accompany size change are listed in a table, all the way from diminutive to colossal.

As for an increase to large, you may want to think about at least giving them a couple of racial HD... I'm trying to think of any 1HD (the only type that have class HD replace racial rather than add to it) large creatures and failing.

I will watch this discussion with keen interest, because it's something I've been considering myself.

 

[Spatzimaus]

In Soldarin's ECL system, Small/Medium are balanced at LA+0, and each size above OR below that is +1. That is, Fine and Gargantuan are both LA+3.

Being Tiny/Diminutive/Fine is BETTER than being Small, not worse. Yes, you're a bit more limited in which classes you do well in, but in those classes the difference is large. Large or bigger races give substantial advantages to melee classes (reach, larger weapons, STR) that are far more valuable than the drawbacks; likewise, Tiny or smaller races do far better at caster classes (size bonus to AC and attack bonus, DEX, Hide), since the drawbacks in reach and STR don't affect them.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you give an increase to Size Large *and* accompany it with the massive stat modifiers (including +8 Strength!) it is undoubtably worth more than +1 LA. Size Large with no extra benefits (which includes -1 to hit and AC, -4 to Hide, +4 to Grapple etc, extra reach, and additional damage dice on all weapons--so 1d8 goes to 2d6 and 2d6 goes to 3d6) is pretty solid for +1 LA.

 

[Arkhandus]

Size changes aren't so simple as just +1 LA per category of change. As others have noted, being extra-little benefits casters and sneaks but sucks for everyone else, while being extra-big benefits frontline warriors and slightly benefits melee/ranged support warriors (clerics, archery-focused characters, etc.) but mostly sucks for everyone else.

Whether or not you use the size adjustments from the Monster Manual determines just how balanced or unbalanced a size change is.

If you give Large size with the attendant changes (higher Str/Con, lower Dex, some natural armor, +5 feet of reach, larger space, +4 on grapples and such, -1 on attacks and AC, use of larger weapons, d4 nonlethal unarmed damage, etc.) you should probably make it a +2 Level Adjustment OR just give 3 or 4 racial hit dice with it (assuming they're cruddy racial HD, like those of humanoids, not the awesome racial HD of dragons or outsiders or whatnot). That should be close enough to balanced, at least.

Small size isn't worth a Level Adjustment, unless the race is already quite powerful for its +0 LA otherwise, in which case it would be a +1 LA or 2 racial hit dice.

I don't have the time right now to go into more detail with full descriptions of each size category's benefits and drawbacks with situational concerns taken into account....

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OK, let me give you some more info to make clear what I'm doing, so we can work things out thoroughly.

I'm designing a new campaign world that currently experiences an extinction level event (ELE) every 50,000 years. Because of the nature of the ELE, however, which causes the "background level of magic" to be high, life recovers quite quickly, but not neccessarily in the same form.

One of the ideas I toyed with was having a Small, winged variant of Thri-Kreen, as well as Large Freshwater and Marine Thri-Kreen relatives...and allowing them to be used as PC races alongside their standard cousins. (Of course, like other aquatic races, there WILL be drawbacks.)

Then I thought, if it works for the Thri-Kreen, could it also be made into a template of sorts?

The starting ECL on this campaign will be something like 4 or 5- I'll be encouraging players who choose a race that is primarily a surface dweller to take some kind of Template rather than just loading up on class levels.

So basically, I need to figure out what changes need be made to a PC race that is one step smaller or larger than normal. I could see "giant" Medium sized Kobolds, or Large Humans, or Small Dwarves...

 

[reanjr]

I don't think going down below Medium should be negative LA except for the point when you can no longer attack 5 ft. away, as there are numerous benefits as you get smaller that come into play more often than the drawbacks.

Think of it this way. How often do characters:
Attack
Get attacked
Hide
Move Silently

How often do characters:
Get in a grapple
Have to worry about lifting or carrying

The mechanics are fairly in favor of smaller creatures. It is primarily reach that is the kicker for size changes. I say a better method would be +1 LA per 5 ft. reach above 5 ft. -1 LA if Tiny (no reach at all).

The MM rules to adjust ability scores from size changes is also not that harmful to Small creatures as long as they play to their strengths. Weapon Finesse and the Rogue class offset quite a bit of their bad points. Likewise, the increased Strength makes up for a larger creature's inability to hit, and they are still slammed by the Dex penalty on top of the size AC penalty.

 

[Kafkonia]

Then I thought, if it works for the Thri-Kreen, could it also be made into a template of sorts?

If you have the Book of Templates: Deluxe Edition (3.5) it has Gigantic and Miniature templates that would fit the bill, with a couple of caveats -- both templates involve changes to HD (double for every step of increase in size, halving for every decrease) and don't spell out a specific CR change, rather advising you to judge each race individually based on numerous factors.

If you don't mind that, though, I highly recommend it.