Size Question

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The unspoken part of that example is that they are polymorphing an advanced-to-75HD-shrew of Medium size of Legacy. And I thought it was an obvious inference.

I fixed that for you.

 

[Bad Paper]

Why does the Polymorph description state that you cannot assume a size smaller than Fine, yet the Alter Self description does not?

 

[Bauglir]

Unless you believe, as I do, that

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.

is the overruling text.

It's also got a shrew-to-manticore example.

I don't see how that overrules the size limitation?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I don't see how that overrules the size limitation?

Because the earlier versions of the spells go on from their initial sentence to describe their limitations.

"You can do X. Here are the limitations on X."

PaO just says:

"You can do X."

 

[Bad Paper]

Because the earlier versions of the spells go on from their initial sentence to describe their limitations.

yeah, but see my earlier post in this thread. Why does Polymorph have an apparent limitation that Alter Self does not? This implies (weakly) that Polymorph does not have that size limitation.

 

[Bauglir]

Because the earlier versions of the spells go on from their initial sentence to describe their limitations.

"You can do X. Here are the limitations on X."

PaO just says:

"You can do X."

It doesn't though - it says that the spell functions like Polymorph, except that you can do X (where X = changes one object or creature into another).

Polymorph in turn references from Alter Self.

I've always understood this to mean the spell inherits all conditions from the parent spell except where otherwise noted.

Hence with Polymorph you could only morph to a creature within one size category of your own, except where that would cause you to assume a form smaller than fine. (Maybe you're playing an awakened fly or something )

 

[Iku Rex]

If you go by the RAW neither polymorph nor polymorph any object can change a Medium creature into a Colossal creature. (Bauglir explained why in his first post to the thread.) The shrew-to-manticore example is a mistake, just as it was in 3.0 polymorph any object - the example contradicts the spell description. (A type of mistake WotC won't even bother to correct, as per their errata policy.)

Even if you disregard the size limitation inherited from alter self, there's still the HD problem - I think the best you can do with less than 15HD (or even 20HD, for draconic polymoph from Draconomicon) is a Gargantuan whale.


Of course, Skip Williams has his own ideas (as usual). According to his Rules of the Game articles on polymorph, polymorph has no size limitation and polymorph any object has pretty much no limitations at all.

 

[RookSeven]

Okay, assuming that Skip's rules are correct ::tries to deal with that:: what is the lowest level (or Hit Dice) that I could polymorph myself into a Colossal creature?

 

[Rkhet]

By core: Ha-Naga, 20.

/edit: didn't realize this was on page 4. oh dear. necromacy bad.