Skill-based spellcasting help me make this system!

[Jeph]

Who else is tired of the spells per day method? I personally am sick of it. I mean, how many fantasy novels do you read in which that dumb d20 shoot-and-forget method is used (not published by WotC)?!?! None!

Yes, there have been a few alternate systems, such as Wheel of Time, and CoT, but neither really perfectly fits.....

Right now, my personal favorite is the Force powers in Star Wars d20: All super power stuff is a skill, for those of you who don't know. And using these skills makes you lose vitality points. This, I have concluded, is the way to go.

So, I call out to the community to help me create a skill-based spellcasting system. I'd like to be able to do most of the stuff in the PHB by the time this is done, and hopefully more....

Here is my preliminary idea for the system, the basics:

The feat Magical Ability is required to gain any magic skills at all.

Magical Ability (Magic)
You have discovered a latent magical ability.
Prerequisites: Int, Wis, or Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain access to all Basic magic skills as cross-class skills.
Normal: All magic skills are unavailable.

After Magical Ability, there will be 5 Elemental feats: Sky Magic, Earth Magic, Flame Magic, Water Magic, and Soul Magic.

Sky Magic (Magical)
You have discovered a talent for Sky magic.
Prerequisites: Magical Ability, Int 15+
Benefit: You gain access to all Basic Sky skills as class skills, and any 3 Advanced Sky skills as class skills. All other advanced Sky skills are now cross-class skills.

Earth Magic (Magical)
You have discovered a talent for Earth magic.
Prerequisites: Magical Ability, Cha 15+
Benefit: You gain access to all Basic Earth skills as class skills, and any 3 Advanced Earth skills as class skills. All other advanced Earth skills are now cross-class skills.

Flame Magic (Magical)
You have discovered a talent for Flame magic.
Prerequisites: Magical Ability, Cha 15+
Benefit: You gain access to all Basic Flame skills as class skills, and any 3 Advanced Flame skills as class skills. All other advanced Flame skills are now cross-class skills.

Water Magic (Magical)
You have discovered a talent for Water magic.
Prerequisites: Magical Ability, Int 15+
Benefit: You gain access to all Basic Water skills as class skills, and any 3 Advanced Water skills as class skills. All other advanced Water skills are now cross-class skills.

Spirit Magic (Magical)
You hace developed an affinity for Spirit Magic, the least easily mastered magical art.
Prerequisites: Magical Ability, either Water, Flame, Air, or Earth Magic, Wisdom 15+
Benefit: You gain access to all Basic Spirit skills as class skills, and any 3 Advanced Spirit skills as class skills. All other advacned Spirit skills are now cross-class skills.

And then, If a character wants access to more Advanced skills as class skills, they may take Deep Afinity

Deep Afinity (Magical)
You have a deeper afinity with a certain type of magic.
Prerequisites: Magical Ability, correct Elemental Magic feat.
Benefit: You gain access to 2 more Advanced skills of the selected Element as class skills.

Now I've mentioned Basic and Advanced skills, but I haven't really said what they are: Basic skills are the simple stuff, such as creating bursts of flame (Flame), healing damage (Spirit), conjurring pure water (Water), and other ways of directly handling an element in it's purest form. Anything that directly creates, moves, or changes the size, density, dimensions of a pure element is a basic skill. Anything that handles the element in a more advanced form, such as teleportation (air), scrying by gazing into a pool of water (Water), or replacing a person's soul with that of a watermelon (spirit) (only try this in a verry comical setting), is an Advanced skill. Right now, I've just got a few simple ones. For any spell that requires a saving throw, the DC is equal to the caster's check result. When trying to beat spell resistance, make a check in the appropriate spell skill, not a level check. Whenever a spell is cast, the caster is going to either lose some Vitality Points, if that system is being used, or take some Subdual Damage.

Fireball (Magic, Basic, Flame, Cha)
You can use you're magic to create spheres of fire.
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: check result x20 feet
Effect: 5-foot radious burst, accepting a -1 penalty on the check increases the radious by 5 feet.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
SR: yes

A ball of flame deals damage according to the table below.
Result.....Damage....Drain
10minus.1d6...........1
11-15.....2d6...........2
16..........3d6...........3
17..........4d6...........4
18..........5d6...........5
19..........6d6...........6
20..........7d6...........7
21..........8d6...........8
22..........9d6...........9
23..........10d6.........10
+2..........+1d6.........+2

Gyser (Magic, Water, Basic, Int)
You conjur forceful jets of water
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Check result x10 feet
Effect: Stream of water 5 feet wide extending out from the caster's hand to maximum range.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Partial (see below)
SR: No

Gyser creates a forceful jet of water that deals subdual and initiates a bull rush on all objects in it's path. The stream of water is Large and has a strength according to the table below. The water created by this spell dissipates after 1 round. On a succesful save, targets take half damage and gain a +2 circumstance bonus on their opposed roll against the gyser's bull rush.

Result.....Damage....Strength....Drain
10minus.1d4 s.........8...............1
11-15.....1d6 s.........10.............2
16..........1d8 s.........12.............3
17..........1d10 s.......14.............4
18..........2d6 s.........16.............5
19..........2d8 s.........18.............6
20..........3d6 s.........20.............7
21..........3d8 s.........22.............8
22..........4d6 s.........24.............9
23..........4d8 s.........26.............10
+2..........+1.............+2.............+2



Pleas, here I am looking for comments, editing, and new material. If you have any ideas for new spell skills, an alteration in the system, or anything, I want to here from you!

"Don't forget to pollish your cow"
-Grugath the Bold

- Jeph

 

[Crothian]

Yes, there have been a few alternate systems, such as Wheel of Time, and CoT, but neither really perfectly fits.....

Then you haven't seen Magic by AEG. Actually either have I, but I learned from a very trustworthy source that it has some very good option magic systems. One is a spell point system, another is like the magic of the RPG Mage. There may be others, I don't know.

 

[Brightshadow]

Looks like you've got some good stuff here. I'm currently doing something similar myself for a home-brew system. Without access to the Star Wars rpg, I've been taking my cues from Spycraft's psionic system.

One thing I've found about it (which I like), is that it's not as versitile as D&D magic. You say you'd like to be able to do everything in the PHB, but when you get down to it, there's a number of singular, non-scaling spells (eg. glitterdust, animal growth) that don't fit well into categories except for themselves.
One of the things I didn't like about wizards in my campaigns were that they had the solution to every problem. Spells for not just common things, like combat or illusions, but everything from making houses to making popcorn. Trying to make skills for each possible spell, or even allowing new skills for new spells, is possible, but not very practical. Even if they're made, few will take them, since it would take skill points away from more important spells.

On the other hand, skill-based magic makes for powerful stuff, depending on how high a scale you make. You could conceivably scale into infinity, simply adding an extra d6 of damage or whatever for every extra five points on the check, making a fire spell stronger than its D&D counterpart. One of the spycraft feats, 'unlocked potential', made my mouth water. That's the one that increases the max possible rank of a skill by three. If you have a wizard who wants to really focus on fire magics, there's alot of possibility there.

I guess what I'm saying is that skill-based stuff makes for a better sorcerer-simulator than a wizard-simulator. Most of the piddly, sometimes-used spells will never be touched, or simply don't scale well enough to make spells out of. The spells that are taken, though, can be used often, and can grow rather powerful.
If you limit the kinds of spells available, it's possible to get much more creative characters from them than 'another wizard', as players decide 'do I want to have a few ranks in lots of spells, lots of ranks in a few spells, or become extremely powerful with a single task?'.

 

[EarthsShadow]

cool idea...

Cool idea. I could even kinda adapt it to my own magic system.

I have a question to ask: Are you going to try adapting each PHB spell into a seperate skill, or just the most common ones?

 

[willpax]

I've been playtesting such a system for a while now, and am in the middle of a third set of revisions.

The main differences between my system and what is being described in this thread are as follows:

1. There are only eight feats, one for each school of magic, and all skills have prerequisite feats in one or more schools (fire is evocation, phantasm req. illusion and divination, and so on).

2. I made the magical skills a bit broader than you have defined in order to preserve some of the flexibility that Brightshadow disscusses. For example, the fire skill allows fireballs, bolts, warming things, and creating light sources. I always found it absurd that it was possible for someone to have the power to incinerate an entire room but be unable to light a torch (I know, all magic is absurd on some level; I'm just describing my taste).

3. I developed a couple of scaling systems (linear progression, factorial progression, and a hybrid 1,2,4,6,9,12 (+1 increment every two levels) to help make the upper level effects harder to power. Two examples: the classic fireball (5d6, 20' radius) would cost 19 VP in this system: each d6 of damage costs 3 VP, and I scale area of effect by the hybrid system (+5' radius per level, so 20' requires +4 VP). The advantage of doing this is that it allows for some flexibility in damage intensity and area of effect that the current system doesn't handle as well. Transformation (a transmutation/polymorph self skill) uses a base # of vitality points, and allows the caster to "memorize" one shape for each rank in the skill. The vitality cost is dependent on the degree of change in terms of size and power.

4. I allow material components to "stand in" for a certain amount of vitality cost. Components of negligible value can contribute one, while more expensive components can contribute more. It also allows for items that give bonuses to spell skill rolls, that store vitality (like the psionic crystals, or like wands, which are re-conceived as storage devices for vitality that are dedicated to one skill only).

5. Saving throws are computed as (number of mana invested in basic effect) + 10. So the fireball above would need a 25 to save against: the +15 VP for the 5d6 (the +4 VP for area of effect doesn't affect the save DC). This makes spells significantly harder to save against, and allows some spells to scale with level that don't currently (such as sleep, which is one effect within the enchantment skill charm now).

6. I give my "scholar" class d6 HD, 6 + int bonus skill points per level, no BAB, and bonus feats as fighter that can be used for skill focus, lore, and magical feats or divine gifts. Bards and clerics get fewer bonus feats that are "magic eligible." Mechanically, any character could select magical feats and skills, but they are class skills for scholar and bard only.

Although they aren't integral to the system, I also have incorporated a "magical awareness" skill that can detect the use of active magic over some distance (which means that using magic entails the risk of revealing your magical presence to others) and a madness/corruption mechanic for using spells that dominate another's will or cause direct harm (based in the conceit that magical powers come from a life force, and using that force to destroy life carries certain risks). As I said, they coud be dropped from the system easily, but I like the idea that magic is risky.

When I finish the last revision, I would be happy to email the file to anyone who is interested. I would also be quite interested in seeing what others have done.

 

[willpax]

Here are two sample skills:


Compulsion (cha) (requires enchantment feat). These spells use magical force to override the personality of the target. Many of these spells carry a risk of corruption with them, depending on their use.

Minor command The caster compels one target to obey one specific, simple command (usually one or two words) that is not obviously dangerous to the target. The caster need not actually verbally command the target. Common examples of commands include sleep, look in a particular direction, stop attacking, and so on. Save: will negates (based on level rather than VP cost; low progression). Range: short. Duration: # of rounds equal to margin of save failure.

Command The caster compels one target to obey one specific command immediately. Sample commands include hold (which paralyzes the target), panic (which causes fear), and other such commands. Save: will negates (saving throw is against level of spell using moderate progression rather than VP used). Range: short. Duration: # of rounds equal to the margin of failure on the will save.

Major Command The caster compels the target to obey one command, which may include several steps. The target will use all means in her or his power to obey the command, but it must be completed within an extended duration period. Save: will negates (saving throw is against level of spell using high progression rather than VP used). Range: short. Duration: Extended.

Geas The caster compels the target to undertake an extended quest or obey a particular injunction indefinitely. If on a quest, the target must attempt to make some progress toward the goal given in the geas every day; if the target does not attempt to make progress, then he or she suffers a –2 to all attributes, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill rolls unless he or she makes a separate will save. If the geas represents an injunction (such as "do not leave the temple grounds") then the target suffers those penalties unless he or she makes a separate will save. The geas can only be ended by being dispelled, having a resisting character make seven succecssful will saves to resist the bad effects of the geas in a row (characters who willingly took on their geas cannot escape through this means), or death. Save: will negates (saving throw is against level of spell using high progression rather than VP used). Range: short. Duration: special.




Forces (int) (requires conjuring feat). This magic uses pure arcane force to manipulate objects and cause damage.

Force Fist Bolt of pure invisible force (visible to those with arcane awareness) strikes one target for damage. 1d6 (+low progression * 3 for additional dice of damage). Save: reflex negates. Range: medium. Duration: instantaneous.

Force Hand Creates a field of arcane force that has two attributes: strength and dexterity. Each attribute must be increased separately (moderate progression for each bonus). Strength bonus is used to determine lifting capacity, grappling strength, and so on. Dexterity is used to determine avoidance saves, to hit rolls, and skill checks for telekinetic manipulation. Save: varies, but usually a reflex save based on the dexterity level of the telekinetic force. Range: medium. Duration: concentration/ short (can be made long with doubled VP).

Force Wall Creates a wall of arcane force that stops most normal and magical attacks. Each VP equals 1 point of hardness in a 10'x10' 2-dimensional square (low progression). Any attack must deal that much damage in one blow (or, if magical, channel more than that amount of vitality) in order to break the barrier. Save: none. Range: close. Duration: moderate (long for double VP).

 

[Jeph]

Okay Willpax, lets try to convert your spells to a table-based thingumy similar to the samples I gave. First, lets do Forces. This could either be Air, for a kind of hardened-air affect, or Spirit, for a touch-with-the-soul affect. Let's try air, as hardening and manipulating it has always been one of my favorite things:

Forces (Magic, Air, Basic, Int)
You can harden air to create sustained magical force.
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 feet per point of check result.
Effect: Invisible force
Duration: Concentration or instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Partial or None (see text)
SR: Yes

You can use your skill in hardening air to create a variety of effects. This skill may not be used in an airless environment.

Force Missiles: This version is instantaneous and requires an attack roll for each missile created, but targets do not get a save. A number of bolts indicated by the below table are created, each dealing 1d6+1 damage.
Result.....#of bolts..Drain
10minus.1..............1
11-15.....2..............2
16..........3..............3
17..........4..............4
18..........5..............5
+3..........+1...........+2

Sustained Force: This version has a duration of concentration, and targets get a reflex save to negate. At the end of each round, make a Force check DC 18 or lose concentration. With Sustained Force, you use hands of hardened air as a way of moving around objects. Any checks or rolls you make with objects held in this way suffer a -6 penalty. The hands of air you create have a strength score as indicated on the below table, and a dexterity equal to your intelligence minus 2. They can not be destroyed. You lose the vitality cost of the spell agin for every round you maintain concentration. The hands have a base speed of 30 feet.
Result.....Strength...Drain
10minus..10............1
11-15......11............1
16...........12............2
17...........13............2
18...........14............3
19...........15............3
+2...........+1..........+1

I have not included Force Wall in this skill, instead that type of thing will be in Invisible Shape:

Force Shape (Magic, Air, Basic, Int)
You can create structures out of hardened air.
Casting Time: 1 full round per 5' cube
Range: 5' per two points of your check result
Effect: Shape composed of invisible hardened air
Duration: 1 minute per point of your check result
Save: None
SR: No

With this spell, you may create a shape made up of hardened air. The shape is almost invisible, and requires a spot check against DC 25 to detect. You may create any shape you like, as long as it has an area equal to or less than a number of 5' cubes as indicated below. hardened air has hardness 10 and 6 HP per inch of thickness. Because it is literally as light as air, it can be moved with a nudge if it is not anchored to a secure object, in which case it requires a Strenght check DC 25 to move up to 5 feet.
Result.....Area.........Drain
10minus.2 cubes....1
11-15.....4 cubes....2
16..........6 cubes....3
17..........8 cubes....4
18..........10 cubes..5
19..........12 cubes..6
+2..........+1 cube...+1

I'm not quite sure of how to do compulsion....maybe how high your check is determines how many HD of creatures you can affect, or how similar to you the creature might be? Any advice would be appreciated.

"A hippo is a terrible thing to waste."
-Jordan the Defender, durring the final days of the Siege of A Thousand Years

- Jeph

 

[willpax]

The basic difference between the two systems seems to be where the variability occurs. In your system, the caster can't predict exactly how effective the spell will be (the dmage or number affected depends on the roll); in my system, they determine their outcome, and then make an all-or-nothing spell roll (which shouldn't be too difficult). Either work, depending on the flavor of the system you want.

What I'm still unsure about with your system is the overall balancing dynamic. I made the skills a bit more expansive so that a caster could have a reasonable amount of power for only a few extra skill points. If you make the skills narrower, then you have essentially created a sorceror with variably powered spells.

You might consider how many powers you want a specialist caster to have. Then, either give them "spell points" they could spend as skills (if they will need a larger number of points than you want to give as skills) or you could group several spell effects into single skills, as I have done, to preserve the skill point level with the other classes.

As to charming: you might create a chart with HD affected, but give fractional results for creatures that are markedly different from the caster: 1/2 result for creatures, 1/4 result for outsiders and other markedly alien targets.

Good luck with your system. I'll try to get a website up with my system so I can get feedback in another thread. And I'll keep trying to help you with yours.

 

[Jeph]

Thanx willpax, let me try the compulsion again:

Compulsion (Magic, Spirit, Advanced, Wis)
you can use your soul mastery to force others to act against their will.
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: check result x 5 feet
Effect:
Duration: Variable, see text
Save: Will negates
SR: yes

Compulsion has two main uses: Suggestion and Domination. Suggestions have a duration of ten minutes per point of your result or until the suggested task is accomplished. your result determines how many HD of creatures you can affect. Creatures substantially different from the caster (ex: Human and fox) count as 1.5 times their actual hit dice, creatures verry different (ex: Human and landshark) count as double hit dice, and totally alien creatures (ex: Human and mind flayer or gibbering mouther) count as tripple their hit dice.

Result.....#of HD..Drain
10minus..1.............1
11-15......3.............2
16...........5.............3
17...........7.............4
18...........9.............5
+3..........+2..........+1

With Domination, you totally take over the subject's body, and leave your own behind. While in another creature's body, your own body is comatose, as sleeping. In another creatures body, you retain your mental ability scores, but gain your host's physical scores. You gain any extraordinary abilities that they might have, but no supernatural or spell-like abilities. you retain your own extraordinary bilities and supernatural abilities, but lose any spell-like abilities. Domination has a duration of 1 round per level, multiplied by 6 for every -4 penalty you accept on your check. If your own body is killed while you are in another body, make opposed will saves with the body's rightful owner. If either soul wins by 5 or more, they now inhabit the body permanently and the other dies. If neither soul wins by this much, the body is now mixed inhabited (for every conflict, make opposed will saves to see who wins). Once per day, one soul may try to kick out the other by repeating the original process. the table below determines how many HD your target may have, and the same penalties apply to Dmination that apply to Suggestion.

Result.....#of HD..Drain
10minus.1..............2
11-15.....2..............3
16..........3..............5
17..........4..............6
18..........5..............8
+3..........+1...........+2

While I'm at it, I'll also do Healing:

Healing (Magic, Spirit, Advanced, Wisdom)
You can restore other's wounds or disperse their ailments with your magical powers.
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: touch
Effect: restores subject's wounds
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
SR: Yes (harmless)

You may heal a number of HP (*not* subdual damage, in fact, this spell *deals* 1 point of subdual damage for every three HP healed) according to the table below. If used against undead, this spell deals damage instead. Note that this spell has a relatively low Drain, as much of the energy for the spell ocmes from the recipient.

Result.....#of HP..Drain
10minus.1d4............1
11-15.....1d8+2........1
16...........2d8...........2
17...........2d8+2.......2
18...........3d8...........3
+2...........+1d8.......+1

This spell can also be used to dispel a disease or poinson. To do this, the caster makes a check with a DC equal to that of the poison or the disease. If they are succesful, poisons are dispelled, and diseases have a 75% chance to be dispelled. Each additional poison or disease in the victum increases the DC by +2 (use the highest DC as a base), but if the check is sucessful, all poisons and diseases are dispelled. This spell has a Drain equal to 1/7th the DC of all poisons and and diseases in the subject combined, split evenly between the caster and recipient (the recipient has the bad luck if it is an odd number to be split).

Hope you all like it,

-Jeph