Skill Challenge Overkill (mearls stuff)

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Mike Mearls has been doing a series on skill challenges, and it has just gotten to be too much.

The original promise of the system was that if the players do something skilly and potentially involved that you don't really expect, now you have something to fall back on.

Now we have a system requiring massive prep, far more then comporable combat challenges. And the whole concept seems to be getting lost. Is this a single encounter, a session in and of itself, a skill driven campaing?

I guess I don't mind examples of skill use, or non-combat sessions. Thats ok. But the original skill challenge idea is being perfected to death.
 
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Skill Challenges are one of the aspects of 4th Ed that seem to have not been adequately playtested.

I agree. However, in comment to TerraDave, maybe you should not look at it as one skill challenge that has changed immensely, but instead as several types of skill challenges, each usuable for different things. Works for me at least.
 


I don't think it has changed. This is how I've always viewed skill challenges in 4E. I think they are much more complicated to design and run than combats. I appreciat this series. There are many campaigns I've read about that run more as non-combat skill type challenges than as combat after combat (either can be fun if well run). This framework in 4E works for me, I just haven't done it enough to be as good at it as I want yet.
 

I love skill challenges. I love how they work, although there are some areas that need tweaking in my opinion. They can represent many different things. I've had a skill challenge extend over two or three sessions, though it was far from the only thing going on- it was an investigation type adventure (who framed the general? how do we spring him from jail?)- and it worked really, really well.

The skill challenge system is an interesting rack. You can hang many different coats on it. One of the coolest ideas re: skill challenges that I've seen was Mearls' example of a constantly-escalating skill challenge to remain undetected in G1. I thought that was a great idea, and a great way to show that the system can really deform a fair amount and model very different things.

The original promise of the system was that if the players do something skilly and potentially involved that you don't really expect, now you have something to fall back on.


It was?
 

mearls said:
I wouldn't be surprised that, as we all get better with skill challenges, I'll have to revise or revisit these articles at some point in the future.

I wonder how much of these articles will work their way into the DMG 2, very very soon? They're effectively playtesting the rules right now, it would make sense to have the official new rules in a shiny hardback.
 

Skill challenges are nothing new to D&D. I was using them all through 3.5. It is just being touted now as a new shiny for the newest incarnation.

Well, more specifically, the new rules tend to encourage it and present it as an option, whereas it was entirely on the DM to come up with the concept in 3.5, and the rules themselves somewhat worked against it.

For myself, I find skill challenges to be a brilliant concept with a massive amount of potential... that require a lot out of the DM to pull off well.

Now, there really are two types of skill challenges. One of them (such as the one in the article) is the planned scene, and often an extensive one - these tend to require mainly preparation. If properly designed, however, they then flow smoothly and easily, allowing PCs a vast array of options and a very dynamic and engaging encounter, without too much actual challenge running them for the DM. But, again, it requires doing a good job designing the options from the start, and avoiding making it too linear or restrictive.

The second type is the more improvised challenge - often showing up when the PCs try to do so something slightly outside the box, but also an option for a DM who wants an interesting encounter, but doesn't want any limits at all on how the PCs will solve it. Instead, the DM simply decides what the scene is, what the goal is, and how difficult it should be, and then lets the PCs solve it in whatever way they want to. This is equally challenging for the DM, but the requirement of the DM here is improvisation - can they take the disparate actions the PCs are doing and find a smooth way to meld them together? Can then have the encounter dynamically changing on the fly to adjust to the PCs actions?

If successful, this can be an even more rewarding experience, since the PCs really feel like they are in the heat of the moment, with their actions and personal choices having immediate and direct results. But, again - this really needs a DM who can make decisions on the fly, or else you end up with a muddled and confusing scene, with half the PCs discovering their actions are useless, and no one entirely sure what they are even supposed to be doing.

I'm not sure more playtesting would really help - the core rules for them are very solid, save for one small footnote on the table. (And the errata they delivered due to that footnote ended up going way overkill.) The issue is simply that they can take a good deal more difficulty to run well than a simple combat does, and that there really isn't enough guidance on putting them together for new DMs.

I think the current articles by Mearls will help with that (for those with DDI), though I do hope that they will also provide some focus for the improsived challenges, along with the advice they are currently giving for planned challenges. I certainly don't think the planned challenge in any way defeats the original concept, though.

On a final note, there is one other big hurdle to understanding how to run a skill challenge - the concept of failure. PCs are expected to win 99% of combats, in general. This obviously changes from one campaign to another, but in general, it is a rarity when a party gets wiped out - or even captured or forced to retreat.

Skill challenges, on the other hand, are designed to have a much more tangible failure rate. PCs should still succeed more often than note, and probably even most of the time - but failure will occasionally come. And this means you need to both run it in a way that failure doesn't make the players bitter, and also carries consequences that they find acceptable - either simply the loss of some healing surges / treasure / etc, or possibly a new dangerous situation they must handle with a combat (or even another, different, skill challenge!) Some challenges might not even have a true penalty for losing - just grant a bonus for success. Understanding how to weigh the success and failure of a challenge is also something I think many overlook, and can give a poor first impression of the system when it does, in fact, go wrong.
 

Understanding how to weigh the success and failure of a challenge is also something I think many overlook, and can give a poor first impression of the system when it does, in fact, go wrong.

I think that this is key and cannot be stressed enough. Failure in combat can mean death and dismemberment. Failure in a skill challenge should more often than not be an annoyance, but important plot points should not hinge on their success. Personally, i'm not good at running challenges and have shied away from the real complex ones, falling back on the tried-and-true roleplaying to work through them rather than dice rolls.
 

The original promise of the system was that if the players do something skilly and potentially involved that you don't really expect, now you have something to fall back on.

That's page 42, not Skill Challenges. "Actions the Rules Don't Cover" is for when your players say "I want to do X" and X is something you hadn't thought of. Skill Challenges are things you prep ahead of time (normally), like encounters.

Now we have a system requiring massive prep, far more then comporable combat challenges.

I disagree. Combat is only less complex than a skill challenge if you choose not to use all the permutations (terrain, hazards, detailed monster tactics) available.

Is this a single encounter, a session in and of itself, a skill driven campaing?

D. All of the above. Just as you can make a combat encounter be the entirety of your session (as my last session's encounter at the Swamp Fane of Ivlis March took the entire encounter), or a single 10-minute ordeal, you can make skill challenges as big or small as you want them to be.
 

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