Skill Challenges: Bringing the Awesome

[Storm-Bringer]

Do we really have 6 pages that fail to address the OP's question?

How about we stop bickering about the skill challenge system and cover what you will do to make your games awesome? And how about if your answer is "I hate skill challenges" (and all associated paraphrasing), you simply refrain from posting here?

PS

Noting the problems with the skill challenge system is at least pertinent to the discussion of using skill challenges. As in: "the skill challenge system may actively hinder 'the awesome', and here's why..."

Unlike, say, complaining about people not staying on some narrow, third party definition of the topic.

 

[Storminator]

Noting the problems with the skill challenge system is at least pertinent to the discussion of using skill challenges. As in: "the skill challenge system may actively hinder 'the awesome', and here's why..."

I disagree. If the goal is to attempt to destroy any attempt at interesting or fun conversation, you may be right. But if the plan is to come up with something interesting and useful, you're dead wrong.

Unlike, say, complaining about people not staying on some narrow, third party definition of the topic.

I should have known better than to have expected better.

PS

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Hmm. Isn't what you describe just a subset of what can constitute a skill challenge? Instead of (the seemingly standard assumption) of picking skills in sequence, you pick them all together and then roll to see what happens. How you arrive on the skills you use doesn't necessarily seem the important part of skill challenges.

But maybe the framework in my mind is more powerful and flexible then the one in the actual DMG. The truth is out there, rolling of some printer...

What skills you use isn't important to the skill challenge because the skill challenge isn't about using skills. You cannot simultaneously use a 'skill' to describe what the character is capable of and implement a 'skill challenge' system where the skill you use doesn't matter, as long as you use one. As a wise post states elsewhere, the skill challenge isn't about what your character does, it's simply about how much of it they are doing. It's like busywork; you don't actually have to accomplish anything, you just have to perform tasks until the boss isn't looking anymore.

Further, and this is rather critical, what you note is correct. The skill use by the characters is in any order you want. However, the skill challenge rolls must be done sequentially. You have to determine when the failures occur, because the players aren't avoiding four failures. They are avoiding four failures before six successes. You can't just have five players throw two dice each and sort it out. They have to roll individually, and sequentially. At which point, the logical progression of skill use is wholly subsumed by the meta-game progression of the skill challenge.

Which, of course, means it isn't really a skill challenge at all. Just a marginal mini-game that is totally divorced from not only what the characters are capable of, but also the supposed 'authorial stance' this is supposed to grant the players.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

If you succeed at the skill challenge, you win. There is one outcome.

If you fail at the skill challenge, I see no reason why the DM can't say that how you fail depends on what rolls you made. There can be plenty of an infinite number of outcomes limited only by how evil the DM wants to be.

How is this not the exact same as deciding based on one roll?

Perhaps there is another way... I know, the players can come up with a plan of action, and the DM can determine the results! Perhaps a roll or two where pertinent, but (this is the cool part) for the most part, the DM and players can - I know this is radical - talk to each other. It might, if the stars are aligned, even lead to some role playing! <gasp>

The party still comes up with a plan. The players may decide what rolls to make, but the DM decides the difficulty. The players can also change their mind in the middle of challenge depending on what happens. Where is the lost flexibility?

Unless someone has better information, the players set the difficulty as part of the 'set the stakes' section of the skill challenge. So, essentially, the DM just 'announces' the challenge. That may be a direct announcement, or it may be the DM describing a scene and fondling the dice.

Of course, this 'forced teamwork' is designed to get the whole party in on the plans, no matter how it is accomplished. Somehow, I am not seeing that player in the corner with his nose buried in a manga to suddenly leap across the room in full pseudo-Shakespearean dialect and start interacting with the game-world environment.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

I disagree. If the goal is to attempt to destroy any attempt at interesting or fun conversation, you may be right. But if the plan is to come up with something interesting and useful, you're dead wrong.

I should have known better than to have expected better.

PS

Your disappointment is a black mark on my soul.

What are your thoughts about the skill challenge system?

 

[med stud]

You cannot simultaneously use a 'skill' to describe what the character is capable of and implement a 'skill challenge' system where the skill you use doesn't matter, as long as you use one. As a wise post states elsewhere, the skill challenge isn't about what your character does, it's simply about how much of it they are doing. It's like busywork; you don't actually have to accomplish anything, you just have to perform tasks until the boss isn't looking anymore.

Except that you can veto the use of a skill if you feel that it's not applicable. You can also add modifications to a skill if you feel that it's very fitting or if it's a cornercase.

 

[LostSoul]

Do we really have 6 pages that fail to address the OP's question?

Good point.

• I will engage the skill challenge mechanics only when there is an in-game conflict of interest that I want to focus on, one that carries a good deal of risk. I will make sure that the skill challenge resolves the conflict of interest.
• I will consider each skill roll important in colouring the ongoing challenge as well as the final outcome. Which skill you used, if it succeeded or failed, how that changes the current situation, and how it will effect what success and failure mean in the end.
• I will consider the level of success or failure when describing the outcome instead of a binary pass/fail result.

 

[LostSoul]

How is this not the exact same as deciding based on one roll?

Do you really think

Intimidate: failure x3
Diplomacy: success x6

is the same as one successful Diplomacy check?

 

[Storminator]

What are your thoughts about the skill challenge system?

I wonder if I can embed a skill challenge within a combat. I typically set up the "stop the ritual" adventure so that success is defined as smacking the high priest mid-syllable. I wonder if I can make the ritual more robust, and the defeat of it more intricate by use of a skill challenge, but have that interrupted by the temple guards. Then I have an extended combat and an extended skill challenge at the same time.

What do you think?

PS

 

[VannATLC]

Unless someone has better information, the players set the difficulty as part of the 'set the stakes' section of the skill challenge. So, essentially, the DM just 'announces' the challenge. That may be a direct announcement, or it may be the DM describing a scene and fondling the dice.

We've had better information. The DM sets the difficulty, based on the description of the action.