Skill Challenges: Bringing the Awesome

[LostSoul]

Is anyone here interested in running through some sample skill challenges in the play by post forum? I missed my chance to try out some 4e, and my gaming schedule is full. I'd like to give it a shot and see how it works out in actual play.

 

[Incenjucar]

After deciding, after a lot of jokes about Vaaaaalhallen, that I'm going to run a music-based campaign at some point, with lots of weird, irreverent references (such as a Wereshark Detective with a war cry of "Nyuck Nyuck", or potions in the form of bats), I've realized how incredibly useful skill challenges will be for the game.

Rhythm Game Puzzles (DDR/Space Channel 5 meets Indiana Jones)? Battle of the Bands with a choice between an easy strum or a risky killer riff? Challenge the Stone Golem to a joint-crumbling Dance Off? Evading groupies? Starting Riots with heavy beats?

I'm going to horribly abuse these new rules, oh yes.

 

[Crosswind]

Just when I think I'm out, they rope me back in!

Stormbringer, et-al: Why is pixel-hunting, as you call it, a bad thing? I'm going to go a step farther than Lacyon who argued that any skill that the DM allowed in a skill challenge was worth equal amounts, and say: Absolutely not! This is one of my problems with Skill Challenges. To any problem, there are many, many solutions...a lot of which are suboptimal. Isn't it just a little bit crazy to think that all attempts are worth the same?

Let's take the Escape from Sembia scenario:
Disguising yourself as a merchant and bluffing your way through? Great solution. If you do it, the guards don't even know you've left, don't look for you outside the city, etc.
Using your knowledge of history to find sewers? Err. Ok solution. Except for the things that live in the sewers, the slogging through , etc. But hey, it worked in Shawshank...
Using endurance to just run until the guards get exhausted? Pretty terrible solution. Guards might have horses. Or have scouts outside the towns. Etc.

This is where "Oh, you made 3 good checks, you succeed!" doesn't really cover it. I am -all for- "pixel-hunting". If every tool in the toolkit solves the problem equally well, it's not very fun/difficult to solve problems.

In the end, however, a poster above who said something akin to "This system is for people who couldn't figure out how to give XP for non-combat challenges in 3.X" is correct. It won't affect better DMs, who were probably already doing something similar (albeit without the silly, codified, X/Y mechanics) in 3.X, and it will help the RPGA folks.

-Cross

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Just when I think I'm out, they rope me back in!

Stormbringer, et-al: Why is pixel-hunting, as you call it, a bad thing? I'm going to go a step farther than Lacyon who argued that any skill that the DM allowed in a skill challenge was worth equal amounts, and say: Absolutely not! This is one of my problems with Skill Challenges. To any problem, there are many, many solutions...a lot of which are suboptimal. Isn't it just a little bit crazy to think that all attempts are worth the same?

More than a little bit. I am not entirely against pixel-hunting, because the required skill isn't always blindingly obvious, so it happens from time to time. If the players are just throwing crap on the wall to see what sticks, the DM needs to offer a few more hints.

This is where "Oh, you made 3 good checks, you succeed!" doesn't really cover it. I am -all for- "pixel-hunting". If every tool in the toolkit solves the problem equally well, it's not very fun/difficult to solve problems.

Precisely. What I am coming to understand, however, is that the audience this edition is catering to doesn't much care for solving problems.

In the end, however, a poster above who said something akin to "This system is for people who couldn't figure out how to give XP for non-combat challenges in 3.X" is correct. It won't affect better DMs, who were probably already doing something similar (albeit without the silly, codified, X/Y mechanics) in 3.X, and it will help the RPGA folks.

Well, the guidelines for non-combat XP were in the... <drum roll> Dungeon Master's Guide. So, it is rather ironic that one of the most common responses to the vagaries of the skill challenge system (among other things) is that the DMG will have clear instructions.

However, I disagree that it will be particularly helpful to new DMs, since they didn't have a problem with non-combat XP before (being new and all). I am certain bad DMs will not be improved by this, nor will their games.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

You seem to be assuming that what is narrated in an RPG doesn't matter - ie that there is no difference between narrating the skill attempt of "my ropeclimbing guy" and narrating the skill attempt of "my diplomancer". This is a bizarre assumption to make in the context of a discussion of RPG mechanics.

There are no rules for 'role-playing', there are only rules for 'game'.

Your role-playing, despite your protestations to the contrary, were never impinged upon by the rules. They may have been damaged by a bad DM, but the rules had nothing to do with it. Hence, you can't fix it with the rules. If you want to tell a story about your Rogue climbing up a wall before, during, or after you roll his Climb Rope skill, have at it. I may have failed to notice it, but I am pretty sure nothing in the PHB, DMG, or any other book for any edition has a section that says 'tell the players to shut up while they are rolling skill checks'.

What is left is discussions regarding mechanics. If you can show how the skill challenge system does things so radically better and different than was done previously, I will reconsider my opinion. But, to be quite honest, I don't give a crap about the role-playing any particular group does or does not engage in. If your group picks up the dice twice per session, but spends the rest of the time weaving stories about what is happening, great. I am totally jazzed, and have fun. That has nothing to do with the mechanics.

Narrative arguments are useless, because rules don't affect the narrative. Rules have never confined how a player describes their character's actions.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Yes, postcount-challenged one, that's what I said.
Only by those willing to extrapolate to absurd lengths.
Yes, that is also what I said.
Precisely.
The players rolling dice to solve the problem, of course. That is the essence of avoiding pixel-bitching. Well, assuming we can agree on what pixel-bitching is. Presumably it's not postcount.

Ja postcount-herausgefordert ein, ist das, was ich sagte.
Nur durch jene Willen, zu den absurden Längen zu extrapolieren.
Ja ist das auch, was ich sagte.
Genau. Die Spieler, die Würfel rollen, um das Problem zu lösen, selbstverständlich.
Das ist das Wesentliche des Vermeidens Pixel-meckernd. Gut annehmend können wir einigSEIN über, was das Pixel-Meckern ist. Vermutlich ist es nicht postcount.

 

[hong]

Ja postcount-herausgefordert ein, ist das, was ich sagte.
Nur durch jene Willen, zu den absurden Längen zu extrapolieren.
Ja ist das auch, was ich sagte.
Genau. Die Spieler, die Würfel rollen, um das Problem zu lösen, selbstverständlich.
Das ist das Wesentliche des Vermeidens Pixel-meckernd. Gut annehmend können wir einigSEIN über, was das Pixel-Meckern ist. Vermutlich ist es nicht postcount.

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[Storminator]

Ja postcount-herausgefordert ein, ist das, was ich sagte.
Nur durch jene Willen, zu den absurden Längen zu extrapolieren.
Ja ist das auch, was ich sagte.
Genau. Die Spieler, die Würfel rollen, um das Problem zu lösen, selbstverständlich.
Das ist das Wesentliche des Vermeidens Pixel-meckernd. Gut annehmend können wir einigSEIN über, was das Pixel-Meckern ist. Vermutlich ist es nicht postcount.

Please post everything like this from now on. Much, much better.

PS

 

[hong]

Your role-playing, despite your protestations to the contrary, were never impinged upon by the rules.

Psst. Still the wrong statement.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Like you say it is one group's interpretation. The DM didn't have to tell them the challenge was won and continued having them roll. But the point is that the challenge was already won.

Except, it wasn't. All they had done was look at it, talk about it, think about it, and talk to the dryad. Nothing was actually done to disarm it, but it was harmless anyway.

Do marathon runners continue to run way past the goal line or do they stop once the race is run?

They continue to run, or they drop over dead.

At any rate, 'six successes in a skill challenge' has no correlation to 'defuse corpse bomb'. Unless you have the exact six steps mapped out ahead of time. The skill challenge system doesn't account for that. The skill challenge system only accounts for any six steps, none of which have to be any kind of physical interaction with the situation.

The outcome of the challenge had already been decided. There is no need to continue to beat the dead horse at that point, as it does not add anything of value to the adventure.

Exactly. Six successes, XP reward, move on.