Skill checks confusion

[Kynrasian]

When making a skill check, would a player need to make a roll to beat a DC that their current skill level already beats?

For example, would a player with 10 athletics have to roll a d20 to jump 5 feet from a standing start?

If there is any official source citing the answer to my question I would greatly appreciate it if someone could tell me where I can find it.

 

[the Jester]

If rolling a 0 on a skill check would still succeed, there's no point in rolling (since a 1 isn't an automatic failure).

The dm might still call for a check, though; he might be aware of some sort of modifier the players don't know about. Or he might call for a check to spread uncertainty amongst the players.

 

[Kynrasian]

I know there's no point, but I've already discussed that with a friend. I know I probably should've mentioned that sooner but it only just occured to me. He argues that since you could still conceivably fail by rolling a 1 then the roll is necessary, I have tried arguing that if your skill already beats the DC then that means that the task is simply menial. I can't try and houserule it because having disagreed over it doing so will just start an argument, unless the others agree with me. Nor can I argue that there's no point as that will only keep the debate going longer.

Is a player within their rights to accept a d20 result of 0 despite there being no 0 on a d20?

 

[the Jester]

He argues that since you could still conceivably fail by rolling a 1 then the roll is necessary, I have tried arguing that if your skill already beats the DC then that means that the task is simply menial.

Ask your friend to find the passage that states that a 1 is an automatic failure for anything except attacks (and possibly saves, I can't recall). He will not be able to do so. He is referring to a rule that doesn't exist, or more properly, applying a rule meant for one thing to another.

You don't get bonus damage when you roll a natural 20 on a History check; you don't autofail when you roll a natural 1 on it, either.

 

[Kynrasian]

So...a natural 1 in 4e is only an automatic fail when attacking?

 

[Kynrasian]

Wait! Wait...

I just found where he's getting that idea from. DM Guide page 189; the sample houserule about critical success and failure.

I'll just bring up that it is a houserule that we never really agreed upon.

It also mentions the a houserule called fumble, which seems to describe the idea of a natural 1 on an attack being an automatic failure. Could you please tell me where it describes this outside of the Rules 101 section of the DM Guide as I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

We run that house rule in our campaign at the local library. The DM argues that no matter how good your character is, they could still conceivably fail, even on a trivial, menial task. Not just attack rolls...Hence, the 1 as an automatic fumble, even if 1 plus your stat beats the DC. It does add a certain element of uncertainty, I have to admit.

 

[Phebius]

We run that house rule in our campaign at the local library. The DM argues that no matter how good your character is, they could still conceivably fail, even on a trivial, menial task. Not just attack rolls...Hence, the 1 as an automatic fumble, even if 1 plus your stat beats the DC. It does add a certain element of uncertainty, I have to admit.

I understand where the desire to do so comes from, but I'd argue against such a thing happening 5% of the time.

 

[Kynrasian]

5% of the time is rather excessive.

An automatic fail on the roll of a 1 makes sense, yes, but having to roll when your skill already beats the DC is a bit excessive. Maybe houseruling that a player must have a skill of at least 1.5 times the DC before they can skip the roll altogether would work, or just ruling it for those skills where it would make sense.

My concern when asking this question was more that me and my friends are playing the adventure Keep on the Shadowfell, just for the purposes of learning the game. Thankfully most of us were quick studies. Next session, I'm taking over as DM and also running my character at the same time (but lets not change the subject) and we're about to go into area 3, where there are planks that break under the weight of heavy armour. Two of our players wear heavy armour, me being the third, but I already know about the planks, and I was hoping to use the athletics check as a cue to the other two that walking on the planks is a bad idea, because I know these guys: they're not going to think of that on their own, and the pit they'll fall into has guard drakes. I know it's only a 5% chance, and it doesn't make much of a difference, but it'll be the first time any of us have had to do a long jump and I'd like to iron it out now, rather than when someone actually rolls a 1.

 

[Viking Bastard]

5% of the time is rather excessive.

A saving throw would cut that down to 2.25%.