Skill Feats In Pathfinder 2

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

Pathfinder2BetaLogo.png

"One that will stand out to risk-averse players is Assurance, which allows you to achieve a result of 10, 15, 20, or even 30, depending on your proficiency rank, without rolling. Are you taking a huge penalty or being forced to roll multiple times and use the lowest result? Doesn't matter—with Assurance, you always get the listed result. It's perfect for when you want to be able to automatically succeed at certain tasks, and the kinds of things you can achieve with an automatic 30 are pretty significant, worthy of legendary proficiency." This puts a new spin on critical results, as the Assurance feat lets you get the result that you might need for your character, even if it is a low roll.

Characters get a feat on every even-numbered level, so this is going to mean (at least) 10 feats for a character over the course of playing across 20 levels. "At their most basic level, skill feats allow you to customize how you use skills in the game, from combat tricks to social exploits, from risk-averse failure prevention to high-risk heroism. If you'd ever rather just have more trained skills than special techniques with the skills you already have, you can always take the Skill Training skill feat to do just that. Otherwise, you're in for a ride full of options, depending on your proficiency rank." We saw in the update about skills how the number of skills, and how your character advances in them. Skill feats are the road to further customization of your character's skills, and may be a missing piece of the advancement pie.

We know that skill mastery is going to be in "tiers" of expert, master and legendary, and the skill feats will give extra abilities with skills. For example, the cat fall feat: "Your catlike aerial acrobatics allow you to cushion your fall. Treat all falls as if you fell 10 fewer feet. If you're an expert in Acrobatics, treat falls as 25 feet shorter. If you're a master in Acrobatics, treat them as 50 feet shorter. If you're legendary in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall." At the cost of one feat, you receive a lot of new capabilities for your character's acrobatics skill. I suspect that more than a few Pathfinder 2 games are going to see a lot of high level rogues falling from very tall things.

Legendary characters, on either side of the screen, are going to be tough to beat in Pathfinder 2 games. "Legendary characters can do all sorts of impressive things with their skills, not just using scaling skill feats but also using inherently legendary skill feats. If you're legendary, you can swim like a fish, survive indefinitely in the void of space, steal a suit of full plate off a guard (see Legendary Thief below), constantly sneak everywhere at full speed while performing other tasks (Legendary Sneak, from Monday's blog), give a speech that stops a war in the middle of the battlefield, remove an affliction or permanent condition with a medical miracle (Legendary Medic, also from Monday's blog), speak to any creature with a language instantly through an instinctual pidgin language, completely change your appearance and costume in seconds, squeeze through a hole the size of your head at your full walking speed, decipher codes with only a skim, and more!" This is going to mean that there are going to be some pretty impressive high level characters in Pathfinder 2 games.

What do you think? Is the added flexibility that skill feats will give to character counter the changes to the skill system, or make them better?
 

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Wow - that paizo skills thread is brutal. People not very receptive to any ideas outside the "I love paizo" mindset no matter the quality of what they put out (mythic blows no matter what ;) )
 

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Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I'm going to go down the path of what legendary means to me when combined with the examples given by people who don't like this.

- Infinite fall distance with no damage - sounds like a god or vanir.
- turn into a fish - sounds like a god or vanir.
- steal armor off a guard - sounds like a god or vanir.

So if I were to say that loki was able to do any of these things and that his "magic" was innate would anyone have an issue with this? It's not about whether or not the game should or should not support this sort of thing. It should. It's really about how and when players get access to these sorts of abilities and what kind of game you're playing at your table.

So long as PF2 allows you to run low fantasy, high fantasy and god fantasy and you get to choose how you deploy the game at your table then it's fine. The problem that I see that could exist is if players see stuff in a rule book and automatically assume they're going to be able to do it. That's a table problem, not a game problem.

Be well
KB
 


Yaarel

He Mage
At very high levels, all classes are becoming part of the warp and weft of the magical fabric of the universe.

Makes sense to me.

These highest levels should be explicitly called ‘magic’. Albeit it is an innate magic inherit within the soul.
 
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JoeElf

First Post
Legendary stuff at around level 15 in skills basically replicating what a 1st or 2nd level spell can do for feather fall or invisibility is long overdue. You get a couple of these skills that you can take to Legendary (depending on class). Not a big deal. And if you don't want them in your game as the GM or as the group, just ban Legendary feats (and you can still just apply an additional +1 to their skill checks, or take a different skill to Mastery). No one will even feel the impact for 15 levels.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Different kinds of magic

Spirit (Telekinesis, Force, Fifth Element Ether, Teleportation, Planar)
Mind (Telepathy, Enchantment, Illusion, Divination, Fate, Luck)
Soul (Legendary, Martial, Ki, Life, Primal, Nature, Healing)
Body (Four Elements, Material Matter, Tools, Weapons, Equipment)
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
I'm going to go down the path of what legendary means to me when combined with the examples given by people who don't like this.

- Infinite fall distance with no damage - sounds like a god or vanir.
- turn into a fish - sounds like a god or vanir.
- steal armor off a guard - sounds like a god or vanir.

So if I were to say that loki was able to do any of these things and that his "magic" was innate would anyone have an issue with this? It's not about whether or not the game should or should not support this sort of thing. It should. It's really about how and when players get access to these sorts of abilities and what kind of game you're playing at your table.

So long as PF2 allows you to run low fantasy, high fantasy and god fantasy and you get to choose how you deploy the game at your table then it's fine. The problem that I see that could exist is if players see stuff in a rule book and automatically assume they're going to be able to do it. That's a table problem, not a game problem.

Be well
KB

In Norse traditions, turning into a fish, etcetera, is something anyone can do, dvergar, alfar − human too (berserkar, volur, etcetera). Everyone, whether from the race of humans or from the race of æsir, learns how to do the same kinds of magic in the same kinds of ways.

There is no difference in power between ‘low level’ humans and ‘low level’ æsir, and between legendary humans and legendary æsir.

In Norse stories, the races of the vættir are evenly matched.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
So, wizards get Feather Fall at level 1. But the fighter cant get it until something like level 20?

I fear, this is still a case of ‘fighters cant have nice things’.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
In Norse traditions, turning into a fish, etcetera, is something anyone can do, dvergar, alfar − human too (berserkar, volur, etcetera). Everyone, whether from the race of humans or from the race of æsir, learns how to do the same kinds of magic in the same kinds of ways.

There is no difference in power between ‘low level’ humans and ‘low level’ æsir, and between legendary humans and legendary æsir.

In Norse stories, the races of the vættir are evenly matched.

You may very well know the norse mythology and stories far better than I.

But from my perspective. Aesir - Asgard Men - Midgard - Men look to Aesir for how to live their lives and help.

Now I realize in hindsight that I typed Vanir, I meant Valar. Sorry for the miscommunication.

KB
 

Yaarel

He Mage
If magical skill feats are significantly controversial, then put them in a separate book, so those who want them can opt in, and those who unwant them can easily ignore them. Because many do want them, make them available at the same time the core rules book comes out.

Personally, I am fine with reality-altering skill feats.
 

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