Skill Focusing

[pyk]

But a blacksmith does make something. He converts iron into useful tools, nails, horseshoes, etc. A blacksmith could make a mace (yes, I know weapon smith is a different skill, but a iron head stuck on the end of a wood rod is a primitive mace). A blacksmith certainly makes iron spikes....

Yep - its a mess, that is why I combined them. There are some vocations that make little or no product, as well as some that would be hard pressed to make a living - but that is a problem with the trade (vocation) you have taken, buyer beware.

That's exactly the point. A Craft skill is specifically for tradesmen who MAKE things. A person with ranks in Craft are able to go about and sell them, and they are expected to know how much to purchase the same item for. If one takes Craft (pottery), that craftsman knows how to work a wheel, how much water to use per clay, how long to have it in the oven at what temperature. This Potter also knows what it looks like if the correct steps are not taken, i.e. hes does have Appraise (pottery), and if he has the Appraise skill as well, then he gets +2 synergy as it applies to pottery. As this potter then knows how much this piece of pottery is worth, he is then capable of selling that item for the right price, just as if he had Profession (pottery), but this is a virtual skill, as it does not exist.

A Profession skill is only for skills that are specifically service. There is no Craft (sailor), there is no Profession (servant) (as Bob said), nor should they be. As far as cooking goes, the correct skill is Profession (cook). The chef is not making food. He is performing a specific service to someone, i.e. preparing a dish. There is no Profession (blacksmith) as the blacksmith is primarily a Craftsman. Profession is specifically for service, Craft is specifically for manufacture.

Knowledge, on the other hand, can encompass any of the Profession and Craft skills. The knowledge (pottery) skill, for instance, would allow for someone to recognize a piece that was not fired correctly, a piece that had too much water in it, a piece that was made long ago and is an antique. This would not allow the person to be able to make the piece himself, however. It would, though, give a synergy bonus to the respective Craft or Profession skill, as well as a synergy bonus to Appraise that would stack with the bonus from the Craft skill. This means a person who has 5 or more ranks in Craft (pottery), Appraise and Knowledge (pottery) would receive a +4 bonus to that appraise skill, a +2 bonus to the Craft skill, and a +2 bonus to the Knowledge skill.

If it is easier to have a single skill of Vocation for you, rather than the split of Profession and Craft, that's fine. But tell me, what Ability modifier applies to that Vocation? Because Craft gets INT, and Profession gets WIS, because the skills have different uses. Also, do you allow a charater to use the Vocation untrained? Why or why not? Most Craft skills can be used untrained, as anyone can try to make things, but all professions are untrained. You must learn how to serve someone properly before you can make money from it.

Oh, and any gymnast will tell you, balancing and tumbling are two different skill sets. Just because someone can do sowersaults does not mean they can perform on a balance beam, and vice-versa. If a floor starts sliding into a pit, it's a Reflex save because that is whether or not you can react to the floor slinding underneath you in time. If you try to cross a rope are you going to cartwheel across? No, you'll try to keep your balance. Two different skills, used for different situations.

Any other questions that can be explained properly to you?

 

[Beholder Bob]

If it is easier to have a single skill of Vocation for you, rather than the split of Profession and Craft, that's fine. Oh thank you so very much.

But tell me, what Ability modifier applies to that Vocation? Because Craft gets INT, and Profession gets WIS, because the skills have different uses. for day in, day out money earning, use WIS. For a specific task, you focus on, INT. Shocking - but true, the skill mod used is determined by the task.

Also, do you allow a character to use the Vocation untrained? Why or why not? Most Craft skills can be used untrained, as anyone can try to make things, but all professions are untrained. Any one can attempt to make an unskilled attempt at making a living, using WIS, but are unable to make quality items on demand. Just like you would assume per the skills in question (WOW! Now there is a surprise.)

Oh, and any gymnast will tell you, balancing and tumbling are two different skill sets. Just because someone can do sowersaults does not mean they can perform on a balance beam, and vice-versa. Well - balance and tumbling as a single skill was not my argument. I hate to say it, but I agree with you on this.

If a floor starts sliding into a pit, it's a Reflex save because that is whether or not you can react to the floor slinding underneath you in time. But...wouldn't you think a tumbler would be more likely to respond to a tilting floor then a regular Joe? I do, and not just because of his DEX. Just as escape artist can be used to escape a grapple, perhaps allowing a tumble check instead of reflex to allow the PC to avoid falling into a pit is not unreasonable, ehh. Not per the rules, but a reasonable extraction from the grapple example.

If you try to cross a rope are you going to cartwheel across? No, you'll try to keep your balance. Two different skills, used for different situations.[/SIZE] Jeez, your not being sarcastic with that cartwheel comment, are you? Again, not my argument.

Any other questions that can be explained properly to you? Love yourself much? Do you leave lip marks on the mirror? Oh, what are these funny twenty sided plastic things used for, huh teach?

Endnote: the vocation suggestion does not change the number of skills a PC would take (unless you believe there are skills that should be both a craft and a profession), simply allowing anyone with a vocation a chance to make high quality goods. The cook example you gave is not so clear. Check the boards, it has been a point of contention in the past here. Not all vocations are the same, despite what your high school counselor may have told you - some have a more defined product (i.e. craft like product) then others. The vocation sailor makes a WIS check for day in, day out functions as a sailor to earn his keep. Repairs on the ship would need an INT check, and the quality of the work would be kind of important. Hey, and it is a house rule. If you do not like it, don't try it.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'm actually fine with a single "vocational skill".

That seems workable.

Alternately, I can see splitting it into "vocational production skill" and "vocational service skill" as the game mechanics of the two are not really very similar.

That seems workable too.

Either way would work, but having one skill to make horseshoes during downtime to make money and another skill to make the exact same horse shoes for the purposes of actually shoeing your in-game horse like we have now is completely insane.

-Frank

 

[pyk]

Frank - "Either way would work, but having one skill to make horseshoes during downtime to make money and another skill to make the exact same horse shoes for the purposes of actually shoeing your in-game horse like we have now is completely insane."

I don't understand? To which skills are you refering, as no matter what you make the horseshoes for, it uses the same skill, i.e. Craft (blacksmith). Craft (blacksmith) uses his Craft skill during downtime to make money. PHB 3.0, page 66, "Check: You practice your trade and a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."


Bob - "Love yourself much? Do you leave lip marks on the mirror? Oh, what are these funny twenty sided plastic things used for, huh teach?"

I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. You want to kiss my what?

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'm refering to the fact that there is supposedly also a Profession: Blacksmith (referenced in several places throughout the rules), in addition to Craft: Blacksmith.

One of those skills (Craft: Blacksmith or Profesion: Blacksmith) has to go away.

That's really the only thing that Bob and I are saying. Why you guys seem to feel the need to turn this into a mud-slinging contest I don't know.

I suggest that you make a new thread called "Why I hate Bob" and move all the hostility there so I don't have to read it.

-Frank

 

[Beholder Bob]

Pyk: "Any other questions that can be explained properly to you?"

This is a nice big ego you have. Oh master of knowledge, leader of the rightous rule followers, he of the large head. That above comment is certainly not from a shy or underconfident person.

Bob in response to above "Do you leave lip marks on the mirror? Oh, what are these funny twenty sided plastic things used for, huh teach?"

Uh, kiss your what? Are you lonely, looking for affection perhaps? Try the chatroom. I'm simply checking to see how deep the narcissist vein runs, friend. Also, you did ask if I had any questions you could educate me on. PS - You didn't answer my the d20 question, nor if you "Love yourself much?".

So, per the page reference (PHB 3.0, page 66), "...You practice your trade and a decent living" isn't that what profession does as well? The compiling of the 2 is for simplicity sake and negates the questions as to which practice belongs in what catagory (cooking, as mentioned before).

Knowledge Religion should not give knowledge of undead, although it could give a synergy. I prefer Religion (Pantheon) to a generic "I know all gods". But then, I feel Knowlege (planes) should be (Elemental Planes, Astral/Etherel, Upper Planes, Lower Planes). Unfortunatly, if you break it into too many knowledge areas, it requires too many ranks to be good at a subject (planes). Hmm, perhaps knowlege skills that cover a bit too much should focus on specific areas, once per 2 levels (3,5,7,9...) 2 ranks adds a new subgroup with a cumulative -2 penalty (with 7 ranks in planes, I take Astral/Ethereal, then elemental, lower, then upper, so my ranks are 7/5/3/1 for these aspects of the planes. It makes it a bit messy, but it beats multiple catagories of knowlege (the planes example above would require 5 different knowlege skills)...

Sneak: the concept is good but it is too nice for a what (I feel) should be 2 skill points worth of benefit. Then again, make 2 rolls to sneak up on me, I'll roll 2 checks (listen & spot) for each person you go past. Go past 10 orcs, make 20 rolls plus your base check. Yikes! Perhaps reducing it to a single listen/spot mix (perception) and sneak (move silent and hide) isn't such a bad idea. What if instead of combining them, you take the average of those skills and roll, after applying circumstance modifiers? In a situation with too much background obscurement (cover, loud background, etc), the GM can say it is just a (x) check vs a (sense) check?

 

[Beholder Bob]

....I suggest that you make a new thread called "Why I hate Bob" and move all the hostility there so I don't have to read it.
-Frank

Uh, careful there Frank, that could become a popular thread. Then again, it would be a sort of fame, eh? Negative, but still a type of popularity. Then again, how depressing it would be if it didn't get many/any posts. No one knows me, I'm all alone!!

Anyways, to what you said, yep!

Onto the subject of your orriginal post: skill focus sucks! You could allow it to give a +1 (instead of +3) - but it counts as a rank. Suddenly, you can qualify for synergy at 1st level instead of 2nd (in exchange for a feat). It would also allow you to qualify for a prestige class earlier as well. What ya think?

 

[pyk]

I'm refering to the fact that there is supposedly also a Profession: Blacksmith (referenced in several places throughout the rules), in addition to Craft: Blacksmith.

One of those skills (Craft: Blacksmith or Profesion: Blacksmith) has to go away.


-Frank

That's what I'm saying. There is no Profession (blacksmith). Blacksmith is a Craft skill, as referenced in the Core books. And the core books trump the splat books, 3rd party books, adventure modules, etc.

I think you'll find the only references to any overlap of Craft and Professional are found outside the Core books. As for Profession (cook), this is even listed under the profession description.

 

[WizarDru]

There's no need for insults, guys.

There is no profession (Blacksmith) skill, nor a need for one. To wit:

You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.)

So the Craft skill already allows for the daily business of practicing one's skill, be it Craft (Beer) or Craft (Glassblower). Splitting it into two skills only penalize the practicioner, as he now has two skills and two stats to spend his measly commoner points on. PCs are scarce better off.

Splitting all of these skills into many, many sub-skills merely dilutes the system, IMHO, without actually adding much. Hiding and Moving Silently are different enough that they should be separate...especially with the addition of things like various spell effects and items to enhance one, but not the other. Changes like these tend to spiral into infinty because of the broad effects everything has on the system.

 

[Darkness]

Please cut out the insults, guys. Thank you.

- Darkness