Skill plus Agility with supers

[Toj]

I see Captain America obviously as having "max" human agility. He also has world class skill.
What this equates to is a very good chance to not get hit.

Spider-Man has really really high agility.
He also has that spider-sense, which with everything I read adds to his"dodging."
He doesn't have a lot of skill though.

From all the polls I have taken, everyone says Spider-Man is at the top of the "hard to hit" characters.

My question is:
In D&D terms, how high would you say Spider-Man's dexterity is?
What kind of bonus would you give his spider-sense?
Lastly, what level would you make him?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Beale Knight]

In Comic Book Super-Heroes, I developed Spider-Man (an analog actually, so I could post it on the site) this way (regarding your questions, this obviously isn’t a full writeup):

Level 18

Dex 22, via level-based increases and Super Dexterity

The “Spider Sense” power at his level gives him this:
Reptile Brain @ 20: Reflex +5, Initiative +5, Sense Motive +5, Cannot be caught flat-footed, +20 auto-detect traps

With his various Feats and Abilities (including: Bounce Fighting, Mobility, Dodge, Combat Super Dodge, Uncanny Dodge [cannot be flanked], Urban Acrobatics, and Double Quick) his AC is somewhere between 24-30, depending on the exact circumstances. I didn’t add any points for his costume here, since it’s usually depicted as mundane spandex (or a symbiotic alien, but that’s a whole ‘nother topic). Not impossible to hit, but still pretty difficult, especially for your average street thug.

That’s how I do it; however, I suspect that there’s going to be at least as many other opinions as people that post in response. That's one of the things I love about the so-called "glut" of d20 producers.

 

[RangerWickett]

We'll say the Spidey from the recent movie. I'd rank him as a Specialist (photographer-scientist) 1/Fighter 1/Hero 11. He's fairly well-learned, and he got some good experience beating up lots of thugs and stopping the Green Goblin a couple times, which explains the fighter level.

• Danger Sense (11 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Spider-man is never surprised, and always know of impending danger; he is never flat-footed. Base rank 11.
• Entangle (8 ranks): Activated. Genetic. Spider-man can create an entangling web in a 5-foot area, up to Close range, as a standard action. Reflex DC 14 to avoid. Base rank 8.
• Evasion (6 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Spider-man has the evasion ability; on a successful Reflex save to take half damage, he instead takes no damage. Base rank 6.
• Flight (5 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Spider-man can fly at his base movement with poor manueverability, and can only move as long as there is some solid object no more than 90 feet away to the side or above. He cannot hover or move upward unless there is a solid object above him. He shoots strands of webbing from hs hands, that attach to objects, from which he swings. Base rank 8. Movement restricted by local terrain (3 HrP reduction). It's not actually flight, but the rules are effectively the same.
• Heightened Constitution (3 HrPs): Persistent. +2 Constitution. Base rank 3.
• Heightened Defenses (insight) (4 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. +2 insight bonus to AC. Base rank 2. Increased effect (2 ranks).
• Spiderclimb (5 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Can climb walls and ceilings with ease, by crawling on hands and knees. Has an effective +25 bonus to climb checks. Base rank 5.
• Super Agility (16 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. +8 bonus to AC, Reflex saves, initiative, and Dexterity-based checks. Base rank 2. Increased effect x7 (14 ranks). Does not aid ranged attack rolls.
• Super Speed (4 HrPs): Persistent. Movement increased by +40 ft. per round. Base rank 1. Increased speed x4 (4 ranks). Applies only to 'flight' (0 HrP reduction).
• Super Strength (10 ranks): Persistent. Genetic. +5 bonus to damage and Strength-based checks, and an effective +10 Strength for the purposes of lifting. Base rank 2. Increased effect x4 (8 ranks). Does not aid attack rolls.

So let's assume Pete started out as Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 13, with 4 hit points.

When he gained those extra 11 levels of Hero and increased his Constitution, that shot him up 39 more hit points. He used his level-based stat increases to up his Charisma, since he sure seemed a lot more sure of himself afterward. Then he gained a level of fighter to help him in combat. Now his stats are (effectively) Str 18*, Dex 26*, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16, with 50 hit points.

He took as his feats probably Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse (unarmed)**, Weapon Focus (unarmed), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (or should it be flyby attack?), and Combat Reflexes.

Maybe a little fragile for a 13th level character, but his AC is 20 (enough to avoid almost any attack by a thug), plus with his +8 initiative and +11 Reflex save with evasion, it will be very hard to get the drop on him. He even gets two attacks, albeit at only +7/+2.

In a modern setting, with no magic, he does quite well for himself. With mobility alone, he could probably take a rogue of the same level with hit and run tactics, and he might be able to take out a fighter of the same level if he made good use of his entagle abilities. Hmm. I should probably give him uncanny dodge too.

* I say effectively because those super powers don't help him hit things accurately. His attack bonuses still aren't incredible.
** This doesn't help him much yet.

 

[Toj]

Hmm....

Dex 22 and Dex 26 is what you guys rated him as... that seems really low to me. From my experience with comics, he is one of the most agile characters in comics. I can't see any normal character having his dexterity. (Normal in this sense means level 20 and below)

RangerWickett:
With the system you are using, does an increase in strength result in an increase in HP?

It seems in the super-hero world, every instance of super strength results in the character being able to take more punishment. To me having super-strength means you should always have more HP. I can't think of one example in comics where this is not the case. Does the system make extra HP and strength two seperate powers?

 

[Morrus]

It seems in the super-hero would, every instance of super strength results in the character being able to take more punishment. To me having super-strength means you should always have more HP. I can't think of one example in comics where this is not the case. Does the system make extra HP and strength two seperate powers?

Yes, it does, for the following reason:

Just because you can't think of an existing superhero with high strength but low HP doesn't mean that a player may not wish to play such a character. A supers system should allow you to play the characters in the comics if you want to, but not restrict you to just those characters.

So, 95% of all high strength characters will also take large Con or HP increases; that's just designing a character that makes sense. But it shouldn't be impossible to do otherwise.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Some considerations;

Spider-Man pretty much never gets hit by a bullet. His danger Sense should grant a much higher AC bonus against ranged attack.

Spider-Man actually gets hit in melee on a regular basis by skilled melee opponents so there's no call to give him a truly astronomical Dexterity and Speed...

...but I've never seen Spider-Man to go down in only one or two punch. And he's been hit by the hulk on occasions, battered by Venom and recently in the pages of Amazing he's taken quite a beating from Morlun who is described as hitting at least as hard as the Hulk. In the movies he's litteraly thrown through brick building and he's not out for the fight. He's much tougher than 50 HP would give him credit for.

I don't see any reason to make Spider man an ludicrously agile yet fairly fragile hero. He's not impossible to hit but he's hardly easy to knock out.

 

[Toj]

Morrus wrote:
So, 95% of all high strength characters will also take large Con or HP increases; that's just designing a character that makes sense. But it shouldn't be impossible to do otherwise.

To me it seems more complicated, but I can understand it. So you can take an increase to HP by Con ..... and there is another way as well?

It seems in the comics, that a lot of the heavy hitters (with a lot of HP) don't really have an increased stamina. There are some of course... who just keep going and going and going... but even those characters can still be affected by poison... which is weird because Con helps Fort saves.

 

[RangerWickett]

Also, bear in mind that was the Spider-man movie version, where he's only had to face pretty easy threats, and he isn't supremely powerful (you don't see him dodging bullets yet, for one). However, if I were doing the comic version of Spidey that is out now, I'd just guestimate him as somewhere around level 30 or so.

Oh, and this is using Four-Color to Fantasy rules. Bear in mind that I'm typing this from a different computer, so I'm just trying to remember power costs in my head.

We'll make him a Specialist (photographer and scientist) 5/Fighter 4/Hero 21.

• Danger Sense (11 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Spider-man is never surprised, and always know of impending danger; he is never flat-footed. Base rank 11.
• Entangle (11 ranks): Activated. Genetic. Spider-man can create an entangling web in a 5-foot area, up to Long range, as a free action once per round. Reflex DC 15 to avoid. Base rank 8. Medium range (2 ranks), long range (1 rank).
• Evasion (14 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Spider-man has the evasion ability; on a successful Reflex save to take half damage, he instead takes no damage. On a failed save, he takes half damage. Base rank 6. Improved evasion (8 ranks).
• Flight (5 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Spider-man can fly at his base movement with poor manueverability, and can only move as long as there is some solid object no more than 90 feet away to the side or above. He cannot hover or move upward unless there is a solid object above him. He shoots strands of webbing from hs hands, that attach to objects, from which he swings. Base rank 8. Movement restricted by local terrain (3 HrP reduction). It's not actually flight, but the rules are effectively the same.
• Gadgets, Various (8 HrPs): I don't know what all he'd have, but there'd be a nice variety of little things.
• Heightened Constitution (12 HrPs): Persistent. +8 Constitution. Base rank 3. Increased effect x3 (9 ranks).
• Heightened Defenses (insight) (18 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. +9 insight bonus to AC. Base rank 2. Increased effect x8 (16 ranks).
• Heightened Defenses (haste) (8 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. +4 haste bonus to AC. Base rank 2. Increased effect x3 (6 ranks).
• Heightened Dexterity (21 HrPs): Persistent. +14 Dexterity. Base rank 3. Increased effect x6 (18 ranks).
• Spiderclimb (5 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. Can climb walls and ceilings with ease, by crawling on hands and knees. Has an effective +25 bonus to climb checks. Base rank 5.
• Super Agility (22 HrPs): Persistent. Genetic. +11 bonus to AC, Reflex saves, initiative, and Dexterity-based checks. Base rank 2. Increased effect x10 (20 ranks). Does not aid ranged attack rolls.
• Super Speed (4 HrPs): Persistent. Movement increased by +40 ft. per round. Base rank 1. Increased speed x4 (4 ranks). Applies only to 'flight' (0 HrP reduction).
• Super Strength (20 ranks): Persistent. Genetic. +10 bonus to damage and Strength-based checks, and an effective +20 Strength for the purposes of lifting. Base rank 2. Increased effect x9 (18 ranks). Does not aid attack rolls.
• Uncanny Dodge (9 ranks): Persistent. Genetic. Gains uncanny dodge ability equivalent to a 6th level rogue. Base rank 6. Heightened effect x3 (3 ranks).

Again, let's assume Pete started out as Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 13, with 4 hit points. He ends up 30 level, so he puts his 7 stat increases into Dexterity and Charisma. His actual stats end up being Str 8, Dex 28, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16, with 209 hit points. Then, we add on an extra faux +22 Dex and faux +20 Str, neither of which enhance his attack rolls. Gives him an effective Str of 28, and an effective Dex of 50.

He gains a mad insight and haste bonus to AC (+13 total). His Dexterity is phenomenal. He's never surprised, and even when flat-footed, he almost always retains his Dexterity bonus to AC. His AC is 43, not to mention his dodge and mobility and spring attack feats.

His saves are Fort +17, Ref +40, and Will +16.

So his feats are, by this point Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse (unarmed), Weapon Focus (unarmed), Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Flyby Attack, Combat Reflexes, and a couple Skill Focuses. He might also have taken some of the super feats, but I can't recall the whole list from the book now, so I won't try. He might even take some epic feats, though I don't own the ELH.

He gets 3 attacks per round, though they're only at +21/+16/+11. If he hits, he does a respectable d3+11. He's more of a finesse guy than a big bruiser.

By the way, I just came up with a new idea for a super feat, that lets you move so fast that you can flank a person yourself, with no assistance. Hmm.

So, does this seem more convincing? If you want to, you can always give him more levels, or maybe swap out some of the fighter levels for more Hero levels to up his Strength further. It all depends on how tough you want to make him. Right now he could theoretically beat up an ancient wyrm gold Dragon on his own, though it would take him a really long time, but that's a big magical critter, so the comparison isn't fair since Spidey doesn't have any magic items.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, higher level characters are almost always tougher, since they have more hit points. And you can take a Super Tough power, which just flatly gives you more hit points.

Actually, this inspires me to do a bit of a character construction article to include in the Big Book of Super Powers.

Of course, all of Morrus' and my ramblings would become clearer if you had a nice copy of the rules to read along in.

 

[Toj]

Well that Spidey looks a lot closer to my idea of what he should be like.

My view though is that he really hasn't increased that much in dexterity since the first bite. His skill increased (which also helps his dodging) but not too much on the dex though.

Ya see.... I have my own 'alterations' to D&D, which make it more to my liking... less HP, more defense, strength does more, armor reduces damage... All those things that make it more realistic, but still retain the heroic flavor. I am sure a lot of people have their own version of this.

Anyway... I've been attempting to do the whole supers setting... and it's pretty annoying. I mean I got all the powers and how they work, it's just assigning the ECL and all that to them.

From what I hear it seems Four-Color to Fantasy does a good job with this and maybe I should just pick it up and 'alter' the 5% to make it work with my regular alterations.