Skills and Skill Points

[-Eä-]

Personally, I think the skills system should be revamped, mainly because of the book keeping nightmare it seems to be at higher level multiclassed wizards.

The first change I propose is to make skill points because of high intellligence to be retroactive. To make this not too unbalanced, it will work only for the base intelligence score (that which you start with) and raised additional for raises (the ones you get every 4 levels, or because of Epic Feats).

Second change is to allow characters to choose their class skills. The number of class skills they are allowed to choose is based off their base skill points per level (2 for wizards, 8 for rogues, etc).
2 SP/lvl: 6 class skills
4 SP/lvl: 9 class skills
6 SP/lvl: 12 class skills
8 SP/lvl: 15 class skills

Additionally, you will be able to choose a feat which allows you to choose 3 more class skills for your character.


Do you think this is a viable replacement for the old and (in my opinion) cumbersome rules?

 

[Crothian]

How many class skills is All Knowledge skills worth?

I like the the Int being retroactive, I'd include increases do to wishes and simliar magics as well.

Okay, Barbarians will lose one class skill (they have 10, you give them 9)
Bards lose 17 plus and that's without counting how you use knowledge and Speak Language skills.
Clerics lose 3 skills
Druids lose 4 skills.
Fighters lose nothing
Monks lose 6 skills.
Paladins gain 1 skill.
Rangers lose 9 skills.
Rogues lose 16 skills.
Sorcerer lose 1 skill.
Wizards will lose one or so that depend on how all knowledges are treated.

So, you are basically getting rid of a lot of class skills. I imagine Craft and Proffesion will be the first to go. I also expect that many of the skills selected will be the same no matter what class it is (spot, listen, tumble, etc..)

 

[Witness]

Its a good idea. I've cosidered it as well but I think their are a few things you should consider before implimentation:

All skills are not created equal
If everyone can choose any skill, the result will be everyone will want Tumble, Hide, Move S, Spot, Listen, etc... If Fighters and Paladins can Listen and Move Silently, then Rangers become obsolete. Additionally, more weight should be given to class exclusive skills.

Some skills were just made for each other
Ever notice that every class that has Climb as a class skill also has Jump and Swim? Skills aren't and should not be assigned arbitrarilly(sp?). A Class that gets one skill usually also gets skills that Counter or compliment that skill.

What you might consider doing is instead of purchasing individual skills, you acquire a certain number of skill groups that cost more to acquire depending on your level. Thus it would cost 2 points for the Ranger or Druid to acquire the Wilderness Lore, Animal Emp, Handle Animal skill group. For any other class, it would be 5 points.

 

[Witness]

An even simpler solution to those I poposed above would be to allow one to trade out class skills at a rate of 2 to 1. Thus if a fighter wanted Tumble, he would have to give up Swim and Ride. Class-exclusive skills would cost 3 class skills rather than 2.

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings!

Thanks for quick responses, although I disagree with that everyone will take the same skills. Good point on Ranger, though. If I went Druid, I would choose nature oriented skills, not tumble and such (but listen and spot mya be appropriate, as may tumble, if you're a dextrous druid, shapechanging a lot).

Since most classes loose skills, would it not be balanced that they are able to choose? Perhaps the feat should give 4 more class skills?

I think most players would choose skills that is reasonable for the character concept, though. I don't see a heavy plated Paladin moving silently at any circumstance. Although, some may be the exception that do.

So you think I should allow for ability bonuses that comes through wishes (caused by inherent bonuses) should be retroactive as well? I thought that that maybe is a bit too much? (But then again, you may only gain a maximum of 2,5 SP/lvl from them)

 

[Witness]

I don't understand your reason for the retroactive skill point bonus. Why should me becoming smarter affect the skills I learned when I was less smart? So IMHO, bonus skill points from higher intel should not be retroactive.

As for the trading skills thing, I really think it depends whether we are talking about roll-players or role-players.
If your group/character is really in-depth, not min/maxed, then players are more likly to choose skills that enhance the character tthey are trying play.

If however they are powergamers then they will most likely choose those skills that are most often used and are most powerful namely Spot, Listen, Hide, Move S, Tumble, Spellcraft, Search, Use Magic Device, and Wilderness Lore. With your system, it would be easy to make an intelligent fighter with many or all of these skills. Allowing anyone to take these skills infringes not just on the Ranger, it also totally destroys the viability of the Bard as a class. Their must be some trade off, either with the most often used skills costing more, or the player losing morethan one skill for every one they acquire. In theory I have no problem with your idea, I just think that it is not properly balanced.

One thing you didn't seem to adress is class-exclusive skill. Would they remain exclussive or could anyone acquire them?

 

[Crothian]

Well, first of all you need to determine what All Knowledges as Class skills is worth.

Personally, I would have certain skills class skills for certain classes, and then have a few options based on background.

I've allowed characters to trade out class skills for things that made sense for their background.

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

I see his reason. Intelligence increases are the only place where it matters how you got the stats. There is no difference in your char if you rolled a 17 and raised it to an 18 at 4th level in any other stat. Or at what level you raised it. Its a balance thing, not a logic thing. (Not to say it's good, I'll withhold judgement.)

Also I do see this as a problem. First, how do you trat exclusive skills. Can anyone take animal empathy or use magic devise. If so, expect eveyone to take use magic device. Also, as has been said, not all skills are equal. It will lead to everyone taking listen and spot if you use ambushes a lot. Many fighters will take tumble.

Also consider prestigue classes. Some (I'll use the assassin as an example) require skill ranks (8 in hide and move silently). No anyone can take this class after fifth level, all they need to do is chose those skills as class skills.

 

[-Eä-]

I don't understand your reason for the retroactive skill point bonus. Why should me becoming smarter affect the skills I learned when I was less smart? So IMHO, bonus skill points from higher intel should not be retroactive.

As for the trading skills thing, I really think it depends whether we are talking about roll-players or role-players.
If your group/character is really in-depth, not min/maxed, then players are more likly to choose skills that enhance the character tthey are trying play.

If however they are powergamers then they will most likely choose those skills that are most often used and are most powerful namely Spot, Listen, Hide, Move S, Tumble, Spellcraft, Search, Use Magic Device, and Wilderness Lore. With your system, it would be easy to make an intelligent fighter with many or all of these skills. Allowing anyone to take these skills infringes not just on the Ranger, it also totally destroys the viability of the Bard as a class. Their must be some trade off, either with the most often used skills costing more, or the player losing morethan one skill for every one they acquire. In theory I have no problem with your idea, I just think that it is not properly balanced.

One thing you didn't seem to adress is class-exclusive skill. Would they remain exclussive or could anyone acquire them?

In my opinion, Diplomacy is the single most "powerful" skill in the game! It's...tremendous (-:

The reason why I want skill points to be retroactive, is that it's a nightmare to book-keep if they aren't. Think for example a 34th level wizard, how many skill points does he have? It's impossible to say, it depends on when he got his raises, whether he used his Epic Feats on Great Intelligence and so on. In my opinion, it's a bad thing that the nuimber of skill points depends on when you take intelligence increases and so on. I doesn't think this is the most logical approach, but to me it's a sensible one, especially when creating NPCs of high levels.

By the way, I think Monte's optional Bard class, presented in Book of Eldritch Might II, is a better one than the core Bard. It grasps the flavour of the Bard much more. If you haven't read it, I recommend giving it a peak to see if you like it or not.

As for exclusive skills, I was thinking about letting only the classes that originally had them as class skills to take them.

 

[EarthsShadow]

an idea...

Here is an idea:

Why not say that you will get a number of class skills equal to the amount your class starts with, but you can switch out half of them to whatever you want, but you still have to keep half of them also.