Skills As Saves

[Sadrik]

Here is my skills as saves house rule for critique. Basically, there are six skill ratings: trained only (T), untrained (U), poor (P), average (A), good (G), and supreme (S). You jot down this score on your character sheet similar to how you would write down your BAB or fort save. Each skill consists of a modifier.

How it works: suppose a 5th level rogue had a supreme rating in sneak the player would look at what his supreme rating is (+8) and then look at his standard skill modifiers (dex + race + size + synergy + miscellaneous modifiers). Note that under the sneak skill the player would jot down his total modifier and his "S" rating. Then the player would reference the what his current "S" rating was (in this case +8).

I really like this system. It addresses a couple of things that I had problems with the current skill system.
1. Weight: a first level character in core rules receives 4/23rds of his total potential skill points. In this system it is about 1/2 depending on class. A lot more realistic. So you wont necessarily have players pick up 1st level in rogue just to get the huge skill benefit.
2. Calculations: no longer is it necessary to calculate skill points. You get class + int at 1st and you get 1 more at every even level. Very easy. When you level up it is only necessary to change your skill ratings (5 numbers), and to potentially upgrade 1 of your skills.
3. Simplification: the skill list is consolidated to a point where there are no specializations, a headache for characters who want to be very knowledgeable or be able to craft a lot of different kinds of things.
4. Improvement: untrained skills improve without putting any points in them! At high level DC's are higher and this brings the untrained skills a little more into the realm of possibility for characters to achieve.
5. Compatible: Not really a problem I had with the system but I should say: this system is completely compatible it does not make characters unbalanced or require monsters to be redone.

Boy I am really hard selling my system.

SKILLS AS SAVES
Characters get skill points at first level and buy their skills from their class’s skill list. Humans, half elves and half orcs get 1 more skill point at first level.

[B]Skill Points by Class:[/B]
Barbarian	12+int
Bard		14+int
Cleric		10+int
Druid		12+int
Fighter		10+int
Monk		12+int
Paladin		10+int
Ranger		14+int
Rogue		16+int
Sorcerer	10+int
Wizard		10+int

For every two levels a character achieves they gain an additional skill point. (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th)
Characters can also get 3 additional skill points by taking the Open Minded feat.
Rogues have a class feature that gives them an additional skill point at: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th.
Bards and rangers have a class feature that gives them an additional skill point at: 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th.
Barbarians, druids and monks have a class feature that gives them an additional skill point at: 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.
Cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer and wizard have a class feature that gives them an additional skill point at: 7th, 13th, and 19th.

Costs
At first level when characters are buying their skills they get a bonus to buying their class skills. Class skills get a free skill point added to them when bought.

[B]Skill Cost	Skill Rating[/B]
0 skill points	Untrained	
1 skill point	Poor
2 skill points	Average
3 skill points	Good
4 skill points	Supreme

[B]Skill Rating Bonuses[/B]
Level	Sprm	Good	Avrg	Poor 	Untrnd
1	+4	+3	+2	+1	+0
2	+5	+4	+3	+1	+0
3	+6	+5	+3	+2	+0
4	+7	+6	+4	+2	+1
5	+8	+6	+4	+3	+1
6	+9	+7	+5	+3	+1
7	+10	+8	+5	+3	+2
8	+11	+9	+6	+4	+2
9	+12	+9	+6	+4	+2
10	+13	+10	+7	+5	+3
11	+14	+11	+7	+5	+3
12	+15	+12	+8	+6	+3
13	+16	+12	+8	+6	+4
14	+17	+13	+9	+6	+4
15	+18	+14	+9	+7	+4
16	+19	+15	+10	+7	+5
17	+20	+15	+10	+8	+5
18	+21	+16	+11	+8	+5
19	+22	+17	+11	+9	+6
20	+23	+18	+12	+9	+6

Class Skills
Barbarian- Class skills are: Athletics, Awareness, Drive, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Ride, Weaponscraft, and Wilderness Lore.

Bard- Class skills are: Act, Agility, Athletics, Awareness, Bluff, Common Knowledge, Concentration, Diplomacy, Finery, Language, Music, Pilot, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Sneak, and Spellcraft.

Cleric- Class skills are: Building, Common Knowledge, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Spellcraft, Supernatural Lore, and Weaponscraft. Domain Skills: Animal or Plant Domain adds Handle Animal and Wilderness Lore, Knowledge Domain adds Language, Travel Domain adds Drive, Pilot and Ride, and Trickery Domain adds Act, Bluff, and Sneak.

Druid- Class skills are: Alchemy, Athletics, Awareness, Concentration, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Ride, Spellcraft, and Wilderness Lore.

Fighter- Class skills are: Athletics, Building, Drive, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Pilot, Ride, Warcraft, and Weaponscraft.

Monk- Class skills are: Agility, Athletics, Awareness, Concentration, Diplomacy, Supernatural Knowledge, Sense Motive, and Sneak.

Paladin- Class skills are: Common Knowledge, Concentration, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Ride, Sense Motive, Warcraft, and Weaponscraft.

Ranger- Class skills are: Athletics, Awareness, Building, Concentration, Handle Animal, Heal, Ride, Search, Sneak, Warcraft, and Wilderness Lore.

Rogue- Class skills are: Act, Agility, Athletics, Awareness, Bluff, Common Knowledge, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Drive, Engineering, Finery, Intimidate, Music, Pilot, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, and Sneak.

Sorcerer- Class skills are: Alchemy, Awareness, Diplomacy, Concentration, Spellcraft, Supernatural Lore.

Wizard- Class skills are: Alchemy, Common Knowledge, Concentration, Engineering, Language, Spellcraft, and Supernatural Lore.

Skill List
Act (Cha) disguise, perform comedy, perform act
Agility (Dex) balance, escape artist, tumble, perform dance, use rope, all other dexterity related checks
Alchemy (Int) appraise and make, alchemical items, poisons, antidotes, potion identification
Athletics (Str) climb, jump, swim, all other strength related checks
Awareness (Wis) spot, listen and other sense related checks
Bluff (Cha) no change
Building (Int) appraise, repair and make architecture, big traps, steamcraft items, construct bodies
Common Knowledge (Int) knowledge: local, geography, history, nobility, royalty
Concentration (Con) no change
Diplomacy (Cha) diplomacy, gather information, perform oratory
Disable Device (Int) disable devices, sabotage devices, open locks
Drive (Dex) drive cars, boats, chariots, wagons
Engineering (Int) appraise, repair and make devices, locks, fine traps, clockwork items, construct innards
Finery (Int) appraise and make all forms of finery, art, forgery, gem cutting, jewelry
Handle Animal (Cha) no change
Heal (Int) no change
Intimidate (Cha) no change
Language (Int) speak and read languages, identify script, decipher script
Music (Cha) perform: sing, percussion, keyboard, string, wind
Pilot (Dex) pilot planes, trains, balloons, ships
Ride (Dex) no change
Search (Int) search, track
Sense Motive (Wis) no change
Sleight of Hand (Dex) no change
Sneak (Dex) hide, move silently, must beat awareness DC of 10 + awareness to sneak
Spellcraft (Int) spellcraft, use magic device
Supernatural Lore (Int) knowledge: occult, arcana, the planes, religion
Warcraft (Int) tactics, lead troops, set and detect ambushes, siege equipment, artillery firing and upkeep
Weaponscraft (Int) appraise, repair and make all weapons and armor
Wilderness Lore (Int) survival, knowledge: geography, nature, dungeoneering

 

[airwalkrr]

When I posted my variant skill system here, I borrowed some ideas for this system. While I like some of the ideas, it does not appear that we have the same motivation behind changing the skill system. My personal opinion is that the 3e skill system is a well designed, coherent, consistent system that works well. I feel its only flaw is that it is cumbersome. Over the course of 20 levels, characters have many skill points to deal with and the time it takes to allocate those skill points, calculate synergies, and look for skill modifiers in game takes a while because the list is big. I find the system "realistic" but ultimately lacking in utility for a fast-paced game.

I feel like your system is a halfway point between mine and the 3e rules. It is not quite as simple as my rules, but not quite as complicated as the 3e rules. Unfortunately, IMO, your skill system attempts to maintain the semblence of reality at the expense of simplicity. For me, the change is not significant enough to be worth my while. But that does not mean it might work better for others.

That said, judging the system on its merits alone, I think it is a fine idea. I feel as if it is a variant system that would work just as well as the 3e skill rules in almost any campaign. As an acid test, if I were a player, I would have no problem with this as a house rule. I do not foresee any huge pitfalls of such a system, other than it might increase the relative "skill power" of characters (I have no problem with that as my skill system does the same). That may not be what some people are looking for.

I have a few other observations of relatively minor importance. I have not done the numbers, but this system does seem to downplay the importance of Intelligence quite a bit. That might be an unintended consequence. I think a better choice, actually, might be to make this system be based more purely on Intelligence. Give PCs a number of skill points equal to their Intelligence score and reduce the skill points granted by each class by 8 or 10. Possibly increase the skill points granted by some classes like rogue or bard by 2 or 4 to compensate for this. So, say a rogue gets 10 + Intelligence score skill points. A rogue with an average Intelligence score (10) gets 20 skill points. That would let him be supreme in five skills (out of the 18 class skills you list for rogues). That isn't very much. Even by 20th level, he has only mastered 7.5 of 18 of his skills, which isn't very much. Maybe this is intentional (not sure). To rectify this, I would like to suggest you borrow one of my ideas. Give each class bonus skill points based on character level relative to how skilled the class is supposed to be. Give fighters and paladins (two of the least skilled classes in the 3e rules) an extra skill point at every five levels. This lets them master only one more skill in addition to those they start with. Give classes that are moderately skilled, like the druid or monk, bonus skill points every 4 levels. Give classes that are highly skilled, like the bard, bonus skill points every 3 levels. Give the most skilled classes, like the rogue, a bonus skill point every other level. You could adust those numbers up or down, perhaps low skilled classes every 6 levels to most skilled classes every 3 levels or low skilled classes every 4 levels to most skilled classes every level (even with an 18 Int under your system, a 20th level rogue has only mastered 9.75 skills if you change his bonus skill point to every level, which is barely over half his total clas skills).

 

[ValhallaGH]

Generally, I find this pretty interesting. I like your progressions, that even untrained increases. You've got intermediate stages between untrained, trained and mastery, allowing for something more flexible than many rankless skill systems while still being simpler than the current system.

Airwalkr does raise one point, in that Int is now a much less necessary score. I'm actually okay with this, as I've gotten sick and tired of every 'simple warrior' I build having to have a 16+ intelligence to have the skill points needed to do his job. It will be good to see a warrior with 12, 10 or even 8 intelligence, as appropriate for the character concept.

A few quick quick questions. Can you purchase cross-class skills? Is there any increased cost? Is purchasing class skills only beneficial at first level, or every time you start purchasing them?
Did you intend for intelligence to only affect skills at first level? If so, I'm curious as to why you made that decision?

 

[Sadrik]

My personal opinion is that the 3e skill system is a well designed, coherent, consistent system that works well.

I dont want to get distracted here but 2 skill points for a number of classes is just horrible.

(in reference to the core rules)
I feel its only flaw is that it is cumbersome.

Yeah it is but that is definitely not the only problem.

(again in reference to the core rules)
Over the course of 20 levels, characters have many skill points to deal with and the time it takes to allocate those skill points, calculate synergies, and look for skill modifiers in game takes a while because the list is big. I find the system "realistic" but ultimately lacking in utility for a fast-paced game.

I really think this is one of the problems with the core skill system too.

Unfortunately, IMO, your skill system attempts to maintain the semblance of reality at the expense of simplicity.

Are you referring to the fact that my system has 6 levels of skill and yours has 3? What specifically are you referring to here?

I do not foresee any huge pitfalls of such a system, other than it might increase the relative "skill power" of characters (I have no problem with that as my skill system does the same). That may not be what some people are looking for.

Agreed, it does increase the skill power a bit at early levels. But by high level this should balance out. True there may be a small handful of people out there that think the current system offers enough skill points to make a decently skilled character... :\

I have a few other observations of relatively minor importance. I have not done the numbers, but this system does seem to downplay the importance of Intelligence quite a bit. That might be an unintended consequence. I think a better choice, actually, might be to make this system be based more purely on Intelligence. Give PCs a number of skill points equal to their Intelligence score and reduce the skill points granted by each class by 8 or 10. Possibly increase the skill points granted by some classes like rogue or bard by 2 or 4 to compensate for this.

You are right this system does downplay intelligence and the human bonus. But it doesnt downplay it as much as you might think. Remember that 1 point of int or 1 human bonus actually multiply out to a multiple skill ranks at higher level. For instance: two duplicate 12th level characters one is an elf with average alchemy and the other is a human with good alchemy the elf has +8 base ranks and the human has +12 base ranks. So that 1 skill point does make a difference. The same argument caries over with intelligence bonuses too.

So, say a rogue gets 10 + Intelligence score skill points. A rogue with an average Intelligence score (10) gets 20 skill points. That would let him be supreme in five skills (out of the 18 class skills you list for rogues). That isn't very much. Even by 20th level, he has only mastered 7.5 of 18 of his skills, which isn't very much. Maybe this is intentional (not sure).

I think you are forgetting that:

At first level when characters are buying their skills they get a bonus to buying their class skills. Class skills get a free skill point added to them when bought.

So, a Rogue that buys one of his myriad of class skills starts out with an average skill rating rather than poor for 1 skill point. So to max out a class skill that the rogue bought at first level only costs 3 skill points rather than 4.

Also, a note on strategically placing your skill points in this system. At low levels good is nearly as good as supreme (1 point difference). So, I would get my key skills up to good and then improve them at mid level to supreme.

To rectify this, I would like to suggest you borrow one of my ideas. Give each class bonus skill points based on character level relative to how skilled the class is supposed to be. Give fighters and paladins (two of the least skilled classes in the 3e rules) an extra skill point at every five levels. This lets them master only one more skill in addition to those they start with. Give classes that are moderately skilled, like the druid or monk, bonus skill points every 4 levels. Give classes that are highly skilled, like the bard, bonus skill points every 3 levels. Give the most skilled classes, like the rogue, a bonus skill point every other level. You could adust those numbers up or down, perhaps low skilled classes every 6 levels to most skilled classes every 3 levels or low skilled classes every 4 levels to most skilled classes every level (even with an 18 Int under your system, a 20th level rogue has only mastered 9.75 skills if you change his bonus skill point to every level, which is barely over half his total clas skills).

I like the concept of giving different classes different bonuses after 1st level. However, I also like the simpler version of every even character level characters get +1 skill point (similar to gaining a feat every 3rd level). I did something like what you are talking about with the rogue. I gave them bonus skill points every odd level as a class feature.

After first level characters receive an additional skill point at every even level. (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20)
Humans, half elves and half orcs get 1 more skill point at first level.
Rogues have a class feature that gives them an additional skill point at every odd level after first level. (3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19)
Characters can also get additional skill points by taking the Open Minded feat.

So to carry your idea, if 8 point guys got: 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19
6 point guys could get: 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19
4 point guys could get: 5, 9, 13, and 17
and 2 point guys could get: 7, 13, and 19

I kind of like that . I always felt the rogue was far and away the super skill monkey. This makes them a little less so.

So to reiterate how this works: the even skill point bonus is not a class feature it is like gaining feats every third level or ability boosts every fourth level. Then the odd level skill things discussed above are class features.

BTW Airwalkrr, I do like your system. Like I said in your thread it has less gradation but includes a pretty complex skill specializing system.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

Generally, I find this pretty interesting. I like your progressions, that even untrained increases. You've got intermediate stages between untrained, trained and mastery, allowing for something more flexible than many rankless skill systems while still being simpler than the current system.

Thanks! I think it works pretty good too.

Airwalkr does raise one point, in that Int is now a much less necessary score. I'm actually okay with this, as I've gotten sick and tired of every 'simple warrior' I build having to have a 16+ intelligence to have the skill points needed to do his job. It will be good to see a warrior with 12, 10 or even 8 intelligence, as appropriate for the character concept.

I am okay with int playing a lesser role too. However, look above at my previous post. It may not be as small a role as at first you might think...

A few quick questions. Can you purchase cross-class skills? Is there any increased cost?

You can buy cross-class skills freely. But note that you cannot buy class skills after first level. This gives emphasis to what class you are at 1st level. similar to the emphasis of "x4" gives at 1st level in the core rules.

Is purchasing class skills only beneficial at first level, or every time you start purchasing them?

Only at first level. It would become too difficult to keep track of after first level. Its already difficult enough to keep track of them at 1st.

Did you intend for intelligence to only affect skills at first level? If so, I'm curious as to why you made that decision?

Well, I wanted intelligence to affect your background skills and have experience really be the biggest factor later on. I also wanted to design the system almost opposite of what happens in the game now where characters get most of their skill points from having a high intelligence. Like in your fighter example above, 2 + his 3 from int. I would rather have the majority come from his class and fewer come from his int. The issue with this route though is you have to give players enough skill points so that feel like they can do what they want with them. The chief difference here is all characters get to have a goodly amount of skill points and int makes an impact on that. In core rules it is the opposite you get a couple from your class and a goodly amount from int. If one doesnt prescribe to that notion they may not like the system proposed here. If one likes the fact that players have more options without the extremely heavy weighted effects of int in the core rules- they will love this system.

 

[airwalkrr]

Are you referring to the fact that my system has 6 levels of skill and yours has 3? What specifically are you referring to here?

That is the biggest part. One of my main concerns when designing my skill system was making leveling up easier. Choices take time to make, but adding a bonus because of a choice you made at a previous level is much easier. Your system adds bonuses based on a choice yoyu made at a previous level, but it does not reduce the number of choices each character must make enough for my tastes. It is a personal preference thing though, and in all honestly, I am certain your system would work in play every bit as balanced as mine or the core rules. Our systems might have bigger bonuses overall than the core rules, but the core rules have more flexibility at the expense of simplicity.

So, a Rogue that buys one of his myriad of class skills starts out with an average skill rating rather than poor for 1 skill point. So to max out a class skill that the rogue bought at first level only costs 3 skill points rather than 4.

I did forget about that part. With that clarification, I like this system a lot better. Good work.

 

[ValhallaGH]

You can buy cross-class skills freely. But note that you cannot buy class skills after first level. This gives emphasis to what class you are at 1st level. similar to the emphasis of "x4" gives at 1st level in the core rules.
Only at first level. It would become too difficult to keep track of after first level. Its already difficult enough to keep track of them at 1st.

I see. Incentive to develop those skills and abilities usually associated with your class, without preventing someone from exanding into unusual areas. Very clever and smooth.

Well, I wanted intelligence to affect your background skills and have experience really be the biggest factor later on. I also wanted to design the system almost opposite of what happens in the game now where characters get most of their skill points from having a high intelligence. Like in your fighter example above, 2 + his 3 from int. I would rather have the majority come from his class and fewer come from his int. The issue with this route though is you have to give players enough skill points so that feel like they can do what they want with them. The chief difference here is all characters get to have a goodly amount of skill points and int makes an impact on that. In core rules it is the opposite you get a couple from your class and a goodly amount from int. If one doesnt prescribe to that notion they may not like the system proposed here. If one likes the fact that players have more options without the extremely heavy weighted effects of int in the core rules- they will love this system.

Okay. It seems a trifle odd that having a +5 intelligence doesn't make skill acquisition any easier after adventuring begins but I'm willing to cede the point on stylistic grounds, if nothing else.

One last question. Multi-classing. This affects skills how? Or does it? You multiclass and it affects skills the same way such a decision affects feat progression, i.e. not at all except for missed class features.

 

[Sadrik]

That is the biggest part. One of my main concerns when designing my skill system was making leveling up easier. Choices take time to make, but adding a bonus because of a choice you made at a previous level is much easier. Your system adds bonuses based on a choice you made at a previous level, but it does not reduce the number of choices each character must make enough for my tastes. It is a personal preference thing though, and in all honestly, I am certain your system would work in play every bit as balanced as mine or the core rules. Our systems might have bigger bonuses overall than the core rules, but the core rules have more flexibility at the expense of simplicity.

I thought about adding in a cool little thing from Call of Cthulu- when you successfully use a skill you add a check mark to it. You can only raise the skills that have a check mark on when you level up.

This in effect cuts down your choices fairly dramatically and is a little bit more realistic. However it will favor skills that get called for more often by the DM- like awareness, search and sneak.

In call of Cthulu, the "skill ups" were not point based and not automatic. If you had a 90% skill and got a check on it when you "skilled up" you rolled your skill if you failed your skill check (91-100% rolled) you got to add 1d10% to your skill. So, its a little different. But still an idea for cutting down choices.

Personally, I am fine when a character levels up the player adds his 1 skill point to the character in any skill. I dont think that is too complex or adds too many choices.

 

[Sadrik]

I see. Incentive to develop those skills and abilities usually associated with your class, without preventing someone from expanding into unusual areas. Very clever and smooth.

Yeah, I thought it was important that characters were able to become a master at any skill. But that characters who had that as a class skill had an easier time of it.

Okay. It seems a trifle odd that having a +5 intelligence doesn't make skill acquisition any easier after adventuring begins but I'm willing to cede the point on stylistic grounds, if nothing else.

Giving this a little thought. I came up with this variant: The even level skill bonuses are based on your int. [The formula is 5+ int] So, if you have a +2 int bonus that allows you to gain 7 bonus skills points- 1 at every even level but none after 14th. If a character had a -1 int bonus they would get 4 bonus skill points at 2, 4, 6, 8 and no more thereafter. I suppose a chart could be made that distributed these bonus skill points evenly.

Personally, I dont like it. I have a sense that intelligence is not really all that important to skills that involve things like sneak or awareness. So, why would intelligence have any effect on giving more proficiency in those skills? The other factor is it is a bit more complex and one of my goals was simplification.

One last question. Multi-classing. This affects skills how? Or does it? You multiclass and it affects skills the same way such a decision affects feat progression, i.e. not at all except for missed class features.

It does not effects multi-classing. Whatever the character's class was at first level is what matters. Characters gain no benefit from the skill system after first level.

However these will be class features and grant a bonus skill point at the following levels:
8 point guys gets: 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19
6 point guys gets: 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19
4 point guys gets: 5, 9, 13, and 17
and 2 point guys gets: 7, 13, and 19

So if you gained sixth level as a rogue you gained 2 rogue skill points. (Hmm, must be put into rogue class skills?)

 

[ValhallaGH]

Yeah, I thought it was important that characters were able to become a master at any skill. But that characters who had that as a class skill had an easier time of it.

I can agree with that.

Giving this a little thought. I came up with this variant: The even level skill bonuses are based on your int. [The formula is 5+ int] So, if you have a +2 int bonus that allows you to gain 7 bonus skills points- 1 at every even level but none after 14th. If a character had a -1 int bonus they would get 4 bonus skill points at 2, 4, 6, 8 and no more thereafter. I suppose a chart could be made that distributed these bonus skill points evenly.

Personally, I dont like it.

Me neither. It would be a step backwards, towards a less skillful game and that's one of my principle complaints about the core d20 system.
Mind you, it would be better than the current system but still....

It does not effects multi-classing.

Just like feat access. Gotcha.

However these will be class features and grant a bonus skill point at the following levels:
8 point guys gets: 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19
6 point guys gets: 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19
4 point guys gets: 5, 9, 13, and 17
and 2 point guys gets: 7, 13, and 19

So if you gained sixth level as a rogue you gained 2 rogue skill points. (Hmm, must be put into rogue class skills?)

Wait, are you saying that if I take my first level as a Rogue, then no matter what my level progression looks like afterwards, I get bonus skill points at every single level?
Or did you simply mean that the above are standard class features dependant upon the base skill points of the class; much like a Fighter's bonus feats?
I'm fairly sure it is the second but I'd like to be sure.