D&D 5E Skills in 5e
Bedrockgames
Legend
but again, the end result is not the same for everyone. For me these all achieve very different things, in important ways.
I guess the issue we are having is what you seem to find immersion breaking, I find immersion enhancing. There being a wall i cannot climb at 20th level simply doesnt break my immersion (i just dont see why my character automatically should have that ability just because he is level 20). That is totally okay, but it just shows this isntneccesarily a universal problem (that is really my only point here). Again, unless I misunderstand, which is possible.
The journey is different, but the end result of getting over the cliff is the same. If you take park street to work and I take blue street, we're going to have different experiences, but the end result of getting to work is the same.
Again, it's not that the person cannot climb the cliff, it's that climbing the cliff is irrelevant. I'm arguing for making climbing the cliff relevant. Currently there is no system in any edition that makes climbing the cliff relevant.
Bedrockgames
Legend
not neccessarily. On path might lead to you falling and dying. The other path might waste a spell slot. How you get there is meaningful.
How is it irrelevant? If I can't climb the cliff, I can't climb the cliff. If I have to hike back miles to town, spend time and money recruiting someone to help me, then the cliff is very relevant. If I choose not to explore that area of the complex because the cliff is too hard for me, it is quite relevant.
Sadrik
First Post
I am going to hit on a few points:
Magic and gear to eliminate or reduce skill tasks. This is a big feature of D&D and it is very commonly in past editions two entirely different beasts. I think integrating them is key for 5e. Identify spell might give +10 to spellcraft checks for identifying magic items, invisibility might give +10 to sneak checks and make those attacking you are "blind", charm person might give +10 to diplomacy checks (or a bonus on the initial reaction table) and on and on.
Not depending on a die roll to determine stuff that happens at the game table via roleplaying. This was a big issue in 2e and 1e, many 1e players did not like the NWP system because it could allow a roleplaying scenario to be completely handled by a die roll. This in fact became the norm because 3e and 4e both have it and I expect 5e to have it too. That said I would also like there to be an option in 5e where roleplaying is the key factor and not the die roll in social situations. So for instance, you want to bluff someone at the gate, roleplay it, cast charm person, etc. I do not want this to be the only way though because there is a divide in gamestyles. Some players want the ability to roll, because they are not their characters (20 INT elf 200 years old or savage orc barbarian with a 8 INT).
Gamestyle and skill challenges at high level. I think skill challenges should and could still be a challenge at high level. By simple virtue of being high level I dont think you should be adept at diplomacy with a king. That would be dependent upon your CHA and if you have diplomacy skill. So I know this is a point of contention in this thread but that is where I land. Skill challenges should be valid no matter your level, just because you are 20th level you should not be able to climb a cliff, swim in a violent storm, know everything (that is not highly obscure), run for hours, jump ten foot chasms, ride difficult mounts, open locks. I believe they should be primarily based on if you are trained in the skill and what your stat is, your character level should not be in there. Class features or feats to improve them though of course should be in there though...
So to steer this a little because the scaling thing and the roll vs. role play social situations is never going to be resolved. What about tools for skills?
How important should tools be? Should they be... you cannot do the skill without the right tools, period? Or perhaps you are penalized when you do not have the right tool. Crafting for instance if you do not have a hammer and anvil you simply cannot be a blacksmith. Without lock picks you simply cannot open a lock. But what about the more nebulous ones, climbing gear, saddle and healers kit. Then there is gear that can mess you up in certain skills, namely armor and encumbrance in DEX and STR based skills. What about makeshift tools...
Magic and gear to eliminate or reduce skill tasks. This is a big feature of D&D and it is very commonly in past editions two entirely different beasts. I think integrating them is key for 5e. Identify spell might give +10 to spellcraft checks for identifying magic items, invisibility might give +10 to sneak checks and make those attacking you are "blind", charm person might give +10 to diplomacy checks (or a bonus on the initial reaction table) and on and on.
Not depending on a die roll to determine stuff that happens at the game table via roleplaying. This was a big issue in 2e and 1e, many 1e players did not like the NWP system because it could allow a roleplaying scenario to be completely handled by a die roll. This in fact became the norm because 3e and 4e both have it and I expect 5e to have it too. That said I would also like there to be an option in 5e where roleplaying is the key factor and not the die roll in social situations. So for instance, you want to bluff someone at the gate, roleplay it, cast charm person, etc. I do not want this to be the only way though because there is a divide in gamestyles. Some players want the ability to roll, because they are not their characters (20 INT elf 200 years old or savage orc barbarian with a 8 INT).
Gamestyle and skill challenges at high level. I think skill challenges should and could still be a challenge at high level. By simple virtue of being high level I dont think you should be adept at diplomacy with a king. That would be dependent upon your CHA and if you have diplomacy skill. So I know this is a point of contention in this thread but that is where I land. Skill challenges should be valid no matter your level, just because you are 20th level you should not be able to climb a cliff, swim in a violent storm, know everything (that is not highly obscure), run for hours, jump ten foot chasms, ride difficult mounts, open locks. I believe they should be primarily based on if you are trained in the skill and what your stat is, your character level should not be in there. Class features or feats to improve them though of course should be in there though...
So to steer this a little because the scaling thing and the roll vs. role play social situations is never going to be resolved. What about tools for skills?
How important should tools be? Should they be... you cannot do the skill without the right tools, period? Or perhaps you are penalized when you do not have the right tool. Crafting for instance if you do not have a hammer and anvil you simply cannot be a blacksmith. Without lock picks you simply cannot open a lock. But what about the more nebulous ones, climbing gear, saddle and healers kit. Then there is gear that can mess you up in certain skills, namely armor and encumbrance in DEX and STR based skills. What about makeshift tools...
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
Turning spells into skill bonuses works only for spells that involve skills. When I cast Polymorph Self, or Giraffeshape, I hope I don't need to have at least 5 ranks in Polymorph prior to casting.
Consider that the Charm spell is already a skill check. Instead of being opposed by the target's Diplomacy or Sense Motive, you're opposed by his Will save (or what-have-you). The flip side of turning spells into skill bonuses is turning saving throws into Skill Checks.
Should tools be important in skill checks? I'd like to refer to my handy Difficulty chart for that (Easy, Challenging, Difficult, Unlikely, Impossible, and Divine). You want to pick a lock, but don't have lockpicks? Well if the lock was originally Challenging, and since it's Unlikely to pick a lock without picks, you'll need to make a skill check of Impossible. Was the lock already Difficult? Well, it'll take an act of god then to pick that lock, or Divine difficulty.
Sadrik
First Post
Yes.
Was not considering this.
Very astute, I dont like skills as saving throws. 3e and 4e both have that. If you affect me with a skill or a spell I should make a savings throw, not a skill check to resist. Skills imho, should not be thinly veiled saves.
I like your chart. A master chart like that would be very nice in 5e.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Why not? The very essence of elegant design is to remove anything that is not required and handle parallel situations using common frameworks. Why need a whole subsystem for saves when skill/ability checks can suffice? In fact this is exactly what DDN seems to be doing, eliminating both saves and defenses and consolidating the entire thing down to ability checks (they call some of them saves, but the term is largely redundant, all it designates is the timing of the check).
My immediate thought was
Easy -> level 1,
Challenging -> level 5,
Difficult -> level 10,
Unlikely -> level 15,
Impossible -> level 20,
Divine -> level 25.
At that point of course you can simply do with the verbiage and use any DC in that range as you see fit.
Sadrik
First Post
Skills should not be saves because of bonuses and how certain spells work. Skills can be [mind effecting]. You should get bonuses to resist mind affecting things. If it is a skill, it is clunky at best. Something like sense motive/insight can very easily be a will save. This is just me putting things in boxes, could it be another way? Of course, but why have two types of saves that are basically will saves? One that resists magic and one that resists skills? Would not someone who is very good at disbelieving illusions and resisting compulsions and shrugging off Id insinuation, and other psionic attacks also be good at resisting a bluff or intimidate? I do.
In a way this goes into my miff about integrating the skill system in with the spell system rather than have them be two separate entities that function in their own subsystems and rarely touch each other.
I agree with your sentiment though, ability checks and saves are essentially the same and follow the same die rolling mechanic. Each type of check applies different bonuses though, but are the same.
Straight from 3e:Easy -> level 1,
Challenging -> level 5,
Difficult -> level 10,
Unlikely -> level 15,
Impossible -> level 20,
Divine -> level 25.
At that point of course you can simply do with the verbiage and use any DC in that range as you see fit.
Very Easy -> 0
Easy -> 5
Average -> 10
Tough -> 15
Challenging -> 20
Formidable -> 25
Heroic -> 30
Impossible -> 40
So it is in both 3e and 4e. 4e is much more granular and provides a level chart that you look up to see what the DC is for any given task based on the the level of the party. 3e approach is different, look at the task determine how difficult it is and then set the DC. I would rather see a chart like 3e's in 5e rather than a level 1-30 chart to look up DCs. To each his own though.
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
I'll say there are two primary differences between skills and saves:
- Skills are mundane, saves involve more magic.
- Skills tend to be active, while saves are passive.
The former comes from the descriptions - the Tumble description says nothing about dodging magic spells. Reflex does. So re-write the descriptions.
The latter comes from game mechanics - D&D assumes that defending yourself is a passive activity. You can dodge fireballs, dance around, and heft tower shields all day long, without interrupting your chess game. Or spilling a drop of ale. Any indication that 5E will address this?
- Skills are mundane, saves involve more magic.
- Skills tend to be active, while saves are passive.
The former comes from the descriptions - the Tumble description says nothing about dodging magic spells. Reflex does. So re-write the descriptions.
The latter comes from game mechanics - D&D assumes that defending yourself is a passive activity. You can dodge fireballs, dance around, and heft tower shields all day long, without interrupting your chess game. Or spilling a drop of ale. Any indication that 5E will address this?
