Skills?

[BryonD]

Being very objective now, what I want for 4E is a skill system in which:

-Characters can be masters in some skills, good enough in others and suckers in others.

-Characters can be masters in a few skills, good enough in most skills, and suckers in a few others.

What I don't want is a system in which:

-Characters can be masters in some skills and suckers in every other skill.(3.5)

-Characters can be masters in a few skills and good enough in every other skill.(SAGA)

I completely agree with this assessment.

It was never in any way my point to claim that the 3X system should be retained as is. But the thread kinda got derailed into a conversation about a flat shift to SWSE as is.
As I said, I expect a connection to SWSE to be obvious. But I also expect clear tweaks to adjust the flavor from SW to D&D.
WotC has let me down before. But they have done well much more frequently and I am quite optimistic.

 

[BryonD]

The question that really needs to be answered is this: Why does Raistlin need to climb a tree?

Well, I don't think he does. And that fits with my assessment that he doesn't need (and shouldn't have) freebie ranks* in Climb. (* - or whatever 4E term applies)

 

[FreeXenon]

-Characters can be masters in some skills, good enough in others and suckers in others.

-Characters can be masters in a few skills, good enough in most skills, and suckers in a few others.

I stated something similar in another thread on this topic. The SWSE skills is a little too on or off for me, at least for D&D. For Star Wars it seems to work pretty well.

I would to have an in between area as well. Sometimes I want a little bit of one skill for background purposes or to show that my character has had a passing interest in something - usually for knowledge or profession skills.

• 'I Roxors'
• 'I am Competent'
• 'I have Done this before'
• 'Whoa, you want me to do what'

is the kind of granularity I would like to see.

This would translate into:

• Trained with Skill Focus
• Trained
• Something new mechanic
• Freebee ranks

Something new mechanic: Perhaps splitting a Trained skill into 2 skills that are +3/4 Character Level ?

 

[pemerton]

If climbing or swimming comes up in an encounter then the same opportunity cost will be there, as 4E encounters will be designed so that the wizard's role is to cast a spell (perhaps a levitate spell, or one that stills the ocean waves or parts the waters), not to piddle around with half-baked skill attempts.

A) 4 out of 5 times it is not in a round by round encounter. It is still important because it uses up time (if not precise rounds) and resources.

My impression of 4E is that:

*as I said in my earlier post, there will be an emphasis on turning all challenges into encounters, so that your (A) will no longer be true;

*there will be a good chunck of at-will and per-encounter abilities, so the notion of "resource depletion by way of environmental challenges", which was a mainstay of 1st ed, will no longer be applicable.

As I said earlier, therefore, the wizard will not be making skill checks because the game will be structured so as to give her a better, magic-using role to play.

 

[DonTadow]

I completely agree with this assessment.

It was never in any way my point to claim that the 3X system should be retained as is. But the thread kinda got derailed into a conversation about a flat shift to SWSE as is.
As I said, I expect a connection to SWSE to be obvious. But I also expect clear tweaks to adjust the flavor from SW to D&D.
WotC has let me down before. But they have done well much more frequently and I am quite optimistic.

What we don't want is to waste a ton of time on character creation for the average player, which means too much skill deliberation.

The SWSE needs a tiny bit more customization. Perhaps you pick your skill groups at the beginning and depending on your class that is how many skill groups you can pick. Maybe even only certain classes can access certain groups.

However things like atheletics sounds like it should be open for a mage. Heck why can't a mage be in physically good condition. I've read a lot of fiction where the sorceror was strong enough to do physical things but not actual combat.

 

[breschau]

I stated something similar in another thread on this topic. The SWSE skills is a little too on or off for me, at least for D&D. For Star Wars it seems to work pretty well.

I would to have an in between area as well. Sometimes I want a little bit of one skill for background purposes or to show that my character has had a passing interest in something - usually for knowledge or profession skills.

• 'I Roxors'
• 'I am Competent'
• 'I have Done this before'
• 'Whoa, you want me to do what'

is the kind of granularity I would like to see.

This would translate into:

• Trained with Skill Focus
• Trained
• Something new mechanic
• Freebee ranks

Something new mechanic: Perhaps splitting a Trained skill into 2 skills that are +3/4 Character Level ?

Currently in SAGA all skills gain a 1/2 level bonus. Then there's trained and focused. This works for class and non-class skills. As noted above, that doesn't quite work out.

Here's how I think it will go in 4th...

Non-class skills checks: d20 + 1/4 character level + ability modifier.

Class skill checks: d20 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier.

Trained skill checks: d20 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier + 5 (Trained bonus).

Trained and Focused skill checks: d20 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier + 10 (Trained and Skill focus feat bonus).

This system makes it so there is some benefit to class skills, other than you can pick them for training/focus, and makes the skills totally foreign to a character (Jump/Climb) for a Wizard gain free bonuses at a slower rate, but it's still there. Plus, when multiclassing, the characters new class skills gain a boost.

 

[BryonD]

My impression of 4E is that:

*as I said in my earlier post, there will be an emphasis on turning all challenges into encounters, so that your (A) will no longer be true;

*there will be a good chunck of at-will and per-encounter abilities, so the notion of "resource depletion by way of environmental challenges", which was a mainstay of 1st ed, will no longer be applicable.

As I said earlier, therefore, the wizard will not be making skill checks because the game will be structured so as to give her a better, magic-using role to play.

I hope not, because that would suck on a much larger scale than skills.

I doubt they will shackle DMs like this.

 

[BryonD]

What we don't want is to waste a ton of time on character creation for the average player, which means too much skill deliberation.

No problem there. But we also don't want to dumb things down to a one size fits all.

The SWSE needs a tiny bit more customization. Perhaps you pick your skill groups at the beginning and depending on your class that is how many skill groups you can pick. Maybe even only certain classes can access certain groups.

Yeah, I'm with you here.

However things like atheletics sounds like it should be open for a mage. Heck why can't a mage be in physically good condition. I've read a lot of fiction where the sorceror was strong enough to do physical things but not actual combat.

Absolutely. I've never claimed that a mage should be denied access to athletic skills.
I just think it is a very poor fit to say that every PC mage everywhere learns to climb and swim.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The biggest downfall I've seen so far discussed about Star Wars Saga-like skills is that all of them consistently increase, whether trained in them or not. Conan the level 20 barbarian will know as much about spellcraft as the level 1 wizard who spent all of his formative years in the academy of magic.

That's not correct.

First off, we don't even know if there will be a spellcraft skill at all. The closest thing they have in SWSE is 'Use the Force' skill, which you need to be Trained in to use.

Second, if there is, chances are that to do some of the things spellcraft can do, you'll need to be Trained in it. Something I would expect a 1st level Wizard to be, and not a 20th level Barbarian. And if the 20th level Barbarian did spend a FEAT (in SWSE you need to spend a feat to get trained in a skill you don't start out as trained in) to be Trained in Spellcraft, then why wouldn't he know as much as a 1st level Wizard?

 

[breschau]

Currently in SAGA all skills gain a 1/2 level bonus. Then there's trained and focused. This works for class and non-class skills. As noted above, that doesn't quite work out.

Here's how I think it will go in 4th...

Non-class skills checks: d20 + 1/4 character level + ability modifier.

Class skill checks: d20 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier.

Trained skill checks: d20 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier + 5 (Trained bonus).

Trained and Focused skill checks: d20 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier + 10 (Trained and Skill focus feat bonus).

This system makes it so there is some benefit to class skills, other than you can pick them for training/focus, and makes the skills totally foreign to a character (Jump/Climb) for a Wizard gain free bonuses at a slower rate, but it's still there. Plus, when multiclassing, the characters new class skills gain a boost.

The other way to go is Non-Class: 1/4, Class: 1/2, Trained: 1/1 (no bonus), and keep Skill Focus as a feat providing a +5 bonus. Not sure which way I like better.