SKR's problem with certain high level encounters

[PeterDonis]

(I don't know why 3e has ability damage; it seems like a way of getting around Hit Points, even though the designers say that Hit Points are great. I like ability damage, but I wonder why all damage isn't ability damage.)

Probably because the designers wanted to keep the feature of previous editions that most damage doesn't change your ability to do things. If all damage were ability damage then each hit would decrease your ability to hit back (to put it crudely). You may well say, "Exactly--that's why I think all damage should be ability damage", but it would be a major enough change to the system that it would require a huge redesign and re-balance of other aspects of the game.

Peter Donis

 

[rounser]

If you penalise those who are losing combat, they're not nearly as likely to make a comeback, are they? It begins to be like the Monopoly end game - fun for those on top, but a pointless exercise in waiting for the inevitable for those down and out. And - who hits first becomes even more important...as if the game needs that.

Degrading abilities due to injury reduces the ability of heroes to be heroic, so what it adds to the game in terms of realism, it takes away doubly in terms of fun, IMO...

 

[RyanD]

Re: The problem isn't the monster, it's the CR system

Heck, are you still reading along Ryan? I'd be interested in knowing if you have already done some preliminary work on those numbers?

I am, and I have, but I don't have anything I'd feel comfortable demonstrating yet.

I am working on a [hush]secret project[/hush] that will contain my final cut on that system. I expect to work out many of the details of that system with public feedback once I've got my framekwork in some kind of comprehensible format.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Re: The problem isn't the monster, it's the CR system

I am, and I have, but I don't have anything I'd feel comfortable demonstrating yet.

I am working on a [hush]secret project[/hush] that will contain my final cut on that system. I expect to work out many of the details of that system with public feedback once I've got my framekwork in some kind of comprehensible format.

D'oh! Another secret project for the rumor and speculation mill...

 

[Victim]

You aren't cleared into the secret project that can make comments on the other secret projects.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Re: The problem isn't the monster, it's the CR system

I am, and I have, but I don't have anything I'd feel comfortable demonstrating yet.

I am working on a [hush]secret project[/hush] that will contain my final cut on that system. I expect to work out many of the details of that system with public feedback once I've got my framekwork in some kind of comprehensible format.

Hereby volunteers to assist in public feedback

In the meantime I'll continue some thoughts on how I'd like to meet that same objective.

Cheers

 

[hong]

Probably because the designers wanted to keep the feature of previous editions that most damage doesn't change your ability to do things. If all damage were ability damage then each hit would decrease your ability to hit back (to put it crudely). You may well say, "Exactly--that's why I think all damage should be ability damage", but it would be a major enough change to the system that it would require a huge redesign and re-balance of other aspects of the game.

First, Con damage doesn't degrade your ability to hit back.

Second, even if it did, it would still be an improvement over an insta-kill spell, where if you fail your save, you die. That's a pretty major degrading of your hitting ability.

 

[njorgard]

About CRs and Iconics and stuff...

Very interesting thread...

I have been following the discussion and I must say that I LIKE the current CR system. As Monte clearly states in his post, this is just a baseline, and baselines should be used to calculate divergences.

It is natural for this (or any other) system to break down when applied to higher level enconters. The reason for this has been stated many times in this thread and can be explained easily using mathematical reasoning. As a party becomes more powerful and challenges progress in difficulty new factors such as special abilities, powerful spells, and magic items come into play. As the number of factors increases the formula to calculate the outcome of such encounters becomes more complex - exponentially. It would be possible to create a system that takes into account all these different factors to come up with one magical number that could be applied to adjudicate the difficulty level of an encounter. However, such a system would have to be changed every time a new ability, spell, or rule bending mechanic is introduced, therefore limiting the flexibility and expandability of the game. This is why the CR system abstraction is good enough for me.

I also believe the iconics approach to calculate CRs is correct as well. Sure, everyone will try to optimize their character some way or another, but I think it is absurd to ask the game designers to account for all the different possibilities in which this optimization can be done. Thus, as a game designer, you take a "middle of the road" approach - a group of iconic characters which represents the everyday party. As a dm, I feel it is part of my job to determine whether a creature rated as "CR4" would really challenge my 4th level party. In other words, I'm making a determination on how much more powerful my PC party is in relation to the iconic party. This is a classic use for baselines.

Now, if we accept the fact that CRs become less accurate at higher levels (because of the reasons mentioned above) and assume that all CRs are calculated with iconics in mind then we can come up with a divergence factor using our baseline (the iconics). This factor can then be used to approximate the correct challenge level FOR YOUR PARTY. I'm still not sure what could be used to make this comparison, but let me propose this (I'm sure someone out there can come up with something more simple) - take the average party level for your party. Take an averge of the ability bonuses for each member and divide it by the number of party members. If you want more accuracy, you can also average out BABs and saving throw mods. Multiply all these numbers toghether. Do the same thing for an iconic party of the same level and member constitution. Divide these two numbers up and you get a factor you can use to multiply to CRs. Bingo.

Just my two cents...

 

[PeterDonis]

First, Con damage doesn't degrade your ability to hit back.

True, but it does degrade your ability to absorb future hits. I should have elaborated a bit more, but I was writing quickly and it was late.

Second, even if it did, it would still be an improvement over an insta-kill spell, where if you fail your save, you die. That's a pretty major degrading of your hitting ability.

True again, and I don't mind the idea of re-designing instant kill effects as ability damage if it fits better into your campaign. As I said in a previous post, though, an orc can take out a 1st-level character with one good blow, so the possibility of instant death is there at low levels too.

Peter Donis

 

[hong]

True, but it does degrade your ability to absorb future hits. I should have elaborated a bit more, but I was writing quickly and it was late.

Ah, but that's a feature, not a bug. Hit point damage, after all, also degrades your ability to absorb future hits.

True again, and I don't mind the idea of re-designing instant kill effects as ability damage if it fits better into your campaign. As I said in a previous post, though, an orc can take out a 1st-level character with one good blow, so the possibility of instant death is there at low levels too.

The problem is less severe at low levels, because 1st level PCs have max hit points, and also because attack bonuses haven't outpaced AC. Typically an orc won't take down a 1st level fighter except on a successful crit (and then all bets are off).

At high levels, this is no longer the case. With multiple attacks, death spells, special attacks, etc combatants can often _reliably_ take down an enemy in one or two rounds.