D&D 5E SKT: Battle with Iymrith at the Eye of the All Father, what went wrong... (Spoilers)

[Lancelot]

They kicked her butt, even with me giving her double CHA spells instead of just 6 (i.e. 12 spells). Harshnag wasn't going to say "Flee you fools" until it was apparent that the PCs were going to lose.

Interesting. I'm guessing the numbers helped. I ran the big finale fight, with 3x 11th level PC (having drunk the potions of giant size, so on double maximum HP) accompanied by two storm giants on about 100 HP each (approximately equal to another two 11th level characters). It was a near thing, but Iymrith TPK'ed the lot of them. My players are 20-year veterans, and I don't fudge dice rolls... but I was playing Iymrith with near-optimal tactics (including lair actions).

I ran the earlier confrontation as a cut-scene, but only because I'm certain that the average 8th-9th level party (without storm giant allies or potions of giant size) isn't going to be able to handle an ancient blue dragon.

I do have to ask, though... without forewarning, how exactly does a 9th level party handle an AC 22, 500 HP, 18 Int creature with an 88 HP breath weapon with Dex DC 23 for half? Surely, in the first round, she flies to a point where the two most obvious healers (clerics, druids, bards, paladins) are in a 10'x120' straight line, and takes them both out immediately. They fail their saves (almost certainly) and are dropped from max HP (a 9th level cleric with 16 Con has 75 HP). Any other incidental targets in that straight line also get toasted. Iymrith positions herself next to one of the dropped healers. If the other PCs try to kick up the character, she immediately tail bashes them unconscious again (up to three of these per round with legendary actions). As soon as it's her turn again, she focuses on the party rogue or monk (or the third healer, if any). At +16 attack, it's almost always 63 average damage. Plus, the melee characters probably can't close due to Wis DC 20 fear. She continues to position next to a vulnerable character so that she can get another 54 damage during off-turn actions (player 1 acts; Iymrith bashes her adjacent target with legendary action; player 2 acts; Iymrith bashes adjacent target; player 3 acts; Iymrith bashes adjacent target...). As soon as breath weapon recharges, another two characters are dropped from max after Iymrith re-positions to catch them in a line. If possible, she also catches fallen PCs in the breath, to make sure they're dead (auto-fail save from unconscious).

My point is: I honestly don't see the "synergies" which supposedly would make that fight easy for the average 6-man party. Cheese tactics are difficult: banishment and polymorph fail due to Legendary Resistance; polymorph on allied PC to turn them into giant ape fails, because Iymrith attacks the caster three times (plus another three times with legendary tail bashes) either ending concentration or knocking them out; power attack or sharpshooter cheese is difficult due to the very high AC. My players were running 3x 150+ HP characters, and two storm giants, with near-perfect tactics... and they all died. 6x 70 HP characters should be a cakewalk for an ancient blue. I just don't see how this fight could ever be considered easy, unless the DM is so lenient that the party is almost completely made of cheese, or they're fudging the dragon's tactics to make it easy.

 

[KarinsDad]

I do have to ask, though... without forewarning, how exactly does a 9th level party handle an AC 22, 500 HP, 18 Int creature with an 88 HP breath weapon with Dex DC 23 for half? Surely, in the first round, she flies to a point where the two most obvious healers (clerics, druids, bards, paladins) are in a 10'x120' straight line, and takes them both out immediately. They fail their saves (almost certainly) and are dropped from max HP (a 9th level cleric with 16 Con has 75 HP). Any other incidental targets in that straight line also get toasted. Iymrith positions herself next to one of the dropped healers. If the other PCs try to kick up the character, she immediately tail bashes them unconscious again (up to three of these per round with legendary actions). As soon as it's her turn again, she focuses on the party rogue or monk (or the third healer, if any). At +16 attack, it's almost always 63 average damage. Plus, the melee characters probably can't close due to Wis DC 20 fear. She continues to position next to a vulnerable character so that she can get another 54 damage during off-turn actions (player 1 acts; Iymrith bashes her adjacent target with legendary action; player 2 acts; Iymrith bashes adjacent target; player 3 acts; Iymrith bashes adjacent target...). As soon as breath weapon recharges, another two characters are dropped from max after Iymrith re-positions to catch them in a line. If possible, she also catches fallen PCs in the breath, to make sure they're dead (auto-fail save from unconscious).

My point is: I honestly don't see the "synergies" which supposedly would make that fight easy for the average 6-man party. Cheese tactics are difficult: banishment and polymorph fail due to Legendary Resistance; polymorph on allied PC to turn them into giant ape fails, because Iymrith attacks the caster three times (plus another three times with legendary tail bashes) either ending concentration or knocking them out; power attack or sharpshooter cheese is difficult due to the very high AC. My players were running 3x 150+ HP characters, and two storm giants, with near-perfect tactics... and they all died. 6x 70 HP characters should be a cakewalk for an ancient blue. I just don't see how this fight could ever be considered easy, unless the DM is so lenient that the party is almost completely made of cheese, or they're fudging the dragon's tactics to make it easy.

Sorry, by easy, I meant not a TPK.


Remember, this is a large room. It took up our entire grid and there was still 30 or 40 feet beyond the edges.

The dragon walked in like he owned the place and ignored the PCs. The PCs spread out in a circle around the dragon as it walked toward the archway. One PC attacked and combat started. The dragon flew to a side, but was only able to get 2 PCs in the initial breath weapon and rolled 97 points of damage on the first round (that was the only damage roll I remember because it made the players whine ).

But, the PCs had 15 point Aid spells up, one PC had Death Ward, several PCs have Absorb Elements, the Cleric cast Protection From Lightning in round one and has War Caster, most of the players had Inspirations and other few shot resources that they burned through (like the Bard's Cutting Words that prevented quite a few dragon melee attacks from landing, or the Ranger using her +2 arrows which she had been saving for 4 levels and had never used before).

Yup. On paper, I can definitely see the dragon winning outright without working up a sweat and I expected that outcome. Just like you. But like NFL football, that's why they play the game.

Special note: in our game, players can have 3 concentration spells up simultaneously, so that does change group dynamics a lot.


Btw, I will take your suggestions into account for the final battle (assuming that I am DM again at that point, I won't be taking up the DM reins again until January). I kind of like the idea of the dragon targeting one PC, smacking him/her down and staying put and doing a few more tail swipes to incur additional death saving throw failures until the PC is or appears actually dead.

I've always run Dragons as hit and run specialists so that the melee PCs have a hard time whomping on them, but your idea of taking a few PCs out quickly and then staying above their bodies to prevent other PCs from bringing them back does sound like a solid way to start leaning action economy into the favor of the dragon. Thanks for that.

 

[bgbarcus]

I have six players and often allow them to bring up to three henchmen into a dungeon. With that many actions, Iymrith would only be a medium challenge for one of our 9th level parties. She might be able to send one or two into death saves but that many people can do so much damage in one round that no solo monster can be expected to be a serious challenge to the whole party. A blue dragon is especially limited because the straight line breath weapon is unlikely to hit more than one person unless the dragon acts before the PCs have a chance to scatter.

When the players work together to use magic to juice up big damage fighters the group of six 10th level PCs we're playing now can easily deal 200 hp on a good round of attacks.

To make dragons more interesting for this many players I always make them more powerful than described in the Monster Manual.

While solo monsters are rarely dangerous with this big a party, they've been thoroughly beaten up by large groups of lesser monsters. Four hill giants was enough to make them worry but not a serious threat. Adding a dozen orcs to those four hill giants could become a serious challenge because each PC would be tied down by two or more opponents and that many attack rolls will get a decent number of hits. The most important number for judging danger is the ratio of monster actions to PCs.