Slavery [My player's stay out !]

[Trainz]

Grrreetings....

the thread title should freak my players out !

One of the cities IMC has a roman-type slaver society, also including fatal gladiatorial games. I was wondering if a society has to be inherently EVIL to be based on slaves.

Take Rome for example. Although obviously not "good", it doesn't strike me as an evil and destructive society... expansionist, sure, but not evil.

I want that city to be neutral in general, with of course a few evil elements, but not necessarily dominating.

What is YOUR take on the concept ?

(I LOVE the new wysiwyg interface !)

 

[Volaran]

Hmmm, I recall playing in a campaign with an empire that had limited slavery, gladitorial games and such. THe slaves were mostly comprised of criminals and captured enemy soldiers (those likely to provide good entertainment for the games), so my DM at the time defined the empire as neutral as far as the good/evl axis on the issue was concerned.

 

[LuYangShih]

Rome was a generally evil society, by D&D standards. If you were a Roman citizen, it was nice, but if you were not, you had barely any rights at all. If you were a slave, your owner had complete power of life and death over you, as well as sexual rights. Slavery is one of the worst evil acts in existence, perhaps one of the few that equals murder. Any empire that practices it would be evil, most likely Lawful Evil. In fact, the fantasy societies I see being most similar to Rome would be those of the Illithid.

 

[Trainz]

Rome was a generally evil society, by D&D standards. If you were a Roman citizen, it was nice, but if you were not, you had barely any rights at all. If you were a slave, your owner had complete power of life and death over you, as well as sexual rights. Slavery is one of the worst evil acts in existence, perhaps one of the few that equals murder. Any empire that practices it would be evil, most likely Lawful Evil. In fact, the fantasy societies I see being most similar to Rome would be those of the Illithid.

Mmm...

What about a slaver society with laws about the treatment of slaves ?

For example, no sexual acts, no mutilating physical abuse, and such, with fines having to be paid in case of abuse...

Would that be neutral ?

And it would also make sense in a political point of view. The more slaves are badly treated, the more a society would fear a slave upheaval (a la Spartacus), so it would make sense for a cautious government to impose such laws.

Because, a society opposed to slavery is good, that's a given. So, is a neutral society automatically OPPOSED to slavery ? It's like a neutral cleric animating the dead... he's still neutral.

 

[S'mon]

Rome did have laws against maltreatment of slaves, especially murder, according to my ancient history classes. They weren't enforced very well (if at all), though.

 

[LuYangShih]

The Cleric may remain Neutral at first, but if he continues to use Animate Dead, he will become evil. One act of evil does not change alignment, in most cases, but repeated evil actions do. A society that allows and embraces slavery is inherently evil, despite any other redeeming qualities they may have. Lawful Evil societies would be most likely to have slavery, since it is a tiering of classes that oppresses the bottom rung of society for the benefit of those in higher positions.

 

[Trainz]

The Cleric may remain Neutral at first, but if he continues to use Animate Dead, he will become evil. One act of evil does not change alignment, in most cases, but repeated evil actions do. A society that allows and embraces slavery is inherently evil, despite any other redeeming qualities they may have. Lawful Evil societies would be most likely to have slavery, since it is a tiering of classes that oppresses the bottom rung of society for the benefit of those in higher positions.

You do make a good case...

I might follow your drift, but I'll see what the other posters have to say.

Thanks !

 

[Trainz]

What about a Chaotic Neutral society ? How would THEY view slavery ?

It might fit, especially with the main clergy beeing Olidamarra...

?

 

[fusangite]

I was wondering if a society has to be inherently EVIL to be based on slaves.

Well, I would argue that the evil is in the details. In most pre-modern societies, hierarchy is a basic assumption -- it is assumed to be in the nature of the society that it is hierarchical. Clearly, a society cannot be adjudged evil simply because it is hierarchical.

So, the question then becomes: what does slave status entail? I would argue that any system in which slaves have rights qualifies as a potentially non-evil system. In Rome and early modern Spain and Portugal, slaves had rights, recourse to the courts and the possibility of attaining freedom.

Some kinds of slavery are more problematic, however; I would suggest that systems which give a slave owner the absolute right to dispense with a slave's life as though the slave were not human (e.g. antebellum US slavery, some northwest coast aboriginal slavery models and some periods of Russian serfdom) could be argued to be inherently evil. But even then, this is probably best evaluated case by case.

 

[Trickstergod]

An evil AND destructive society strikes me more as Chaotic Evil, anyway. A Lawful Evil one is all about maintaining society and the status quo for the benefit of those at the top. By my reckoning, at least.

Rome, being the expansionist, slave-using, manipulative nation it was, whose rulers tended towards murderous treachery (even discounting figures like Caligula), was, as I see it, an essentially Lawful Evil society. For that matter, I'd place most societies throughout history and the modern era as being some form of Lawful or Evil.

Now, that doesn't mean the people are, just the government, its policies, why those policies are set up, and how they're implemented. Even an act which is essentially Evil can benefit others - it's just that it benefits whomever performed it the most, and the benefit to others was either a side-effect, a way to placate them, or to create the circumstances which led to the evil individuals greater fortunes. I'd say that's often the case with government and business.

With that in mind, one can have an Evil government presiding over an essentially Neutral people. I'd say that's normally the case in most Evil societies (or Good ones, for that matter).

Evil doesn't mean destructive, at least, not necessarily. Most often it just means selfish, in a way defined by the ethical half of the alignment. Lawful Evil bends rules to it benefit, Neutral Evil uses any means necessary to get what it wants, and Chaotic Evil acts on impulse in a selfish manner. To boil things down, and by my own generalized definition of alignments.

Therefore, a city based on slavery has strong inclinations towards evil. Perhaps it only enslaves criminals, which alleviates that to a degree. Then again, killing people for entertainment (gladatorial matches) corrups the act once more. More laws governing the treatment of slaves generally doesn't change the Evil, moral aspect of it, only solidifies its ethically Lawful position.

In regards to a Chaotic Neutral society and slavery, it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing being particularly common. Slaves might exist, to be sure, but I don't believe there'd be any laws, or individuals who would enforce any laws on slavery that did exist, in such a city. Chaotic Neutral has a general "I'll do what I well please" kind of attitude going for it, without the addition of the Evil "...and what I please is to force other people to do as I please as well." So it would start spiralling towards something more Evil.

As said, though, there are a few circumstances that might elevate the act to neutral, such as only making slaves of criminals, but, yeah, it has a decent root in evil, no matter how you cut it, and about an equal root in lawfulness, as well (as slavery insinuates hierarchy, as previously stated). And a city like Rome, in my opinion, had a fairly morally corrupt government, with laws, foreign policies and entertainment that supported that idea. Yet, Rome could still be a decent place to live or visit. Evil often manifests itself quite subtly, after all.

Anyway. Bit simplified, perhaps, but, for now, I'm done.