OGL Sly Flourish is ANGRY


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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Yes, there currently appears to be a competition to see who can be most outraged on the internet. Someone is going to have to literally explode to win it.

Is that in addition to the competition to see who can best delegitimize and make light of fans' and publishers' anger/concerns about the new OGL?
I think the problem is too many D&D fans put too much trust in a company that wasn't run by D&D fans and corporation that wasn't run by D&D fans.

I've compare it to another fandom of my: Pro Wrestling.

As bad a Vince MchMahon, Tony Khan, and Triple H can be at times, wrestling fans can always be sure that they are at least trying to put out aproduct they think fans would like. They might have a lot of other problem and their product might not always be good but you always know that the heads are still carny wrestling fans who want to put out a good show for the fans.

You know that isn't true of WOTC or Hasbro . So a level of distrust should have been put up by the community. Because as long as the head isn't a fan, it will happen again. Not onny for D&D but eventually a 3PP if itt gets big and puts a nonfan in charge.
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I'll take your word that your wrestling-based analogy is apt because I know nothing about professional entertainment wrestling. It's outside my ken.

How about the shop that everyone loves. The owners understand baking, ice cream, furniture or whatever. Their customers trust that the owners will cater to them. Then the aged owners retire and hand down the business to a child who doesn't care for the business.

And the business either closes due to incompetence or lack of knowledge of the industry OR the the child sells it to a bigger company who changes it and breaks many expected norms and agreements.

We are at the point where Bob Bobson III takes chocolate chip ice cream off the menu.

The entire point why the OGL was made and why it is questioned if it works: What happens if the owners of D&D is run by people who don't even like D&D?
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Screen Shot 2023-01-18 at 3.06.00 AM.png


Yeah, I echo Mike Shea's points.

More sad than angry. I know they have people reaching out to schools with free resources and I believe the designers truly love D&D. There are good elements within the company. But seems like the execs are only listening to (a very particular version of) their bottom line right now.
 
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Micah Sweet

Legend
How about the shop that everyone loves. The owners understand baking, ice cream, furniture or whatever. Their customers trust that the owners will cater to them. Then the aged owners retire and hand down the business to a child who doesn't care for the business.

And the business either closes due to incompetence or lack of knowledge of the industry OR the the child sells it to a bigger company who changes it and breaks many expected norms and agreements.

We are at the point where Bob Bobson III takes chocolate chip ice cream off the menu.

The entire point why the OGL was made and why it is questioned if it works: What happens if the owners of D&D is run by people who don't even like D&D?
We certainly know they don't like D&D  customers.
 


I think the problem is too many D&D fans put too much trust in a company that wasn't run by D&D fans and corporation that wasn't run by D&D fans.

I've compare it to another fandom of my: Pro Wrestling.


So you mean, that all the leaks, outrage and so on was orchestrated by Paizo and WotC to occupy the fans while waiting for 2024?
 

Oofta

Legend
Is that in addition to the competition to see who can best delegitimize and make light of fans' and publishers' anger/concerns about the new OGL?

The video states at the 2 minute mark that the propose version of the OGL is "... an attempt to deauthorize third party publishers ability to write [product] for D&D" is counterfactual. Is it theoretically possible that they will try to shut down all 3PP support at some point? Hypothetically. But if they were trying to do that now they would have simply said "We will no longer support the OGL 1.0a." Period. There is no indication they are taking the TSR approach of suing everyone who produces content.

All of these things seem to start with the assumption that WOTC will immediately stop every single 3PP in existence from publishing product for D&D. That is not what they've said and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Not jumping on the hyperbole train is not automatically dismissing all concerns. I empathize with people facing uncertainty. I've worked for that company that was slowly going bankrupt, another company that was bought out and had to downscale. I may not have liked or agreed with the decisions management made, but I didn't make them out to be the second coming of the Nazi regime either.

Everyone who works for a living faces risks to their livelihood. Start up a company to make widgets? Widgets could fall out of fashion or a competitor could make them cheaper and flood the market. Work for a larger company? Elon Musk could buy you out and and start cutting staff like a blindfolded drunk with a chainsaw.

WOTC would gain nothing from shutting down every supporting 3PP. First, from WOTC's perspective the money most 3PPs make is chicken feed. If you make a few hundred, thousands or even a million in a year you simply aren't going to register on their radar. Writing modules has never gotten anyone rich, they aren't even attempting to do the book-a-month club because it's not profitable for them. If another company wants to fill in some niche products for their niche market, it makes business sense for them to let others take the risk.

Yet every one of these things I read or watch (I don't watch many) start from the assumption that WOTC is going to shut everyone else down, that anything they say is a lie. Proof that everything they say is a lie? We just told you it was a lie! I don't think of WOTC as a friend, ally or charitable steward. They're a corporation and their business is to make money. People had a reason to turn the dial of concern up from a "1". But it was turned up to an "11" and it's stuck there with a lot of help from some of the larger companies who have everything to gain from creating new TTRPGs to people looking for eyeballs.

It's impossible to know what the real impact of the OGL 2.0 would be because the rhetoric feels so over the top. But saying that I think the rhetoric is over the top, that WOTC is not attempting to "deauthorize third party publishers ability to write [product] for D&D" based on what they've said and released, is not the same as saying that there are no concerns. It's trying to understand a balance that isn't reflected in virtually everything being published.
 


As bad a Vince MchMahon,
If you think Vince is better then the 5 worst people at wotc (taking only there negative traits and none of there good) you are not paying attention.


Edit: and I men as a boss, as a person, as a content creator, and in general... not just one thing. This man has destroyed lives (multi) in ways WotC seems to have not even come close...
 

Aldarc

Legend
The video states at the 2 minute mark that the propose version of the OGL is "... an attempt to deauthorize third party publishers ability to write [product] for D&D" is counterfactual. Is it theoretically possible that they will try to shut down all 3PP support at some point? Hypothetically. But if they were trying to do that now they would have simply said "We will no longer support the OGL 1.0a." Period. There is no indication they are taking the TSR approach of suing everyone who produces content.

All of these things seem to start with the assumption that WOTC will immediately stop every single 3PP in existence from publishing product for D&D. That is not what they've said and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Not jumping on the hyperbole train is not automatically dismissing all concerns. I empathize with people facing uncertainty. I've worked for that company that was slowly going bankrupt, another company that was bought out and had to downscale. I may not have liked or agreed with the decisions management made, but I didn't make them out to be the second coming of the Nazi regime either.

Everyone who works for a living faces risks to their livelihood. Start up a company to make widgets? Widgets could fall out of fashion or a competitor could make them cheaper and flood the market. Work for a larger company? Elon Musk could buy you out and and start cutting staff like a blindfolded drunk with a chainsaw.

WOTC would gain nothing from shutting down every supporting 3PP. First, from WOTC's perspective the money most 3PPs make is chicken feed. If you make a few hundred, thousands or even a million in a year you simply aren't going to register on their radar. Writing modules has never gotten anyone rich, they aren't even attempting to do the book-a-month club because it's not profitable for them. If another company wants to fill in some niche products for their niche market, it makes business sense for them to let others take the risk.

Yet every one of these things I read or watch (I don't watch many) start from the assumption that WOTC is going to shut everyone else down, that anything they say is a lie. Proof that everything they say is a lie? We just told you it was a lie! I don't think of WOTC as a friend, ally or charitable steward. They're a corporation and their business is to make money. People had a reason to turn the dial of concern up from a "1". But it was turned up to an "11" and it's stuck there with a lot of help from some of the larger companies who have everything to gain from creating new TTRPGs to people looking for eyeballs.

It's impossible to know what the real impact of the OGL 2.0 would be because the rhetoric feels so over the top. But saying that I think the rhetoric is over the top, that WOTC is not attempting to "deauthorize third party publishers ability to write [product] for D&D" based on what they've said and released, is not the same as saying that there are no concerns. It's trying to understand a balance that isn't reflected in virtually everything being published.
It sounds like you have your heart set on winning the aforementioned competition. I hope winning the competition is worth it. 🤷‍♂️
 



Clint_L

Hero
I disagree with WotC's recent OGL proposals. I find their corporate non-apology hilarious.

Still not a fan of outrage culture, which is what I find many YouTubers stoke on any issue that can get them clicks. Every issue becomes a race to see who can become most offended or hurt and offer the most hyperbolic response. And I especially don't like it when other folks claim to speak for me. It's why I am largely tuned out of this OGL situation unless there is a discussion happening that focuses on specific issues, such as the threads here that include actual lawyers exploring the actual legal implications in a carefully reasoned manner.

For instance, we have seen posts comparing what Hasbro did with the OGL to decades of actual abuse of employees at Blizzard. In this thread, comparisons are being made to Vince McMahon, who has been accused of multiple sexual assaults and illicitly paying millions to cover them up. I suggest that constantly dealing up the outrage is not the best way to solve this or any other problem.
 

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