Smackdown? Dragons and Superior Expertise

[RangerWickett]

With Superior Expertise (out of Oriental Adventures), a character can basically use expertise with as big a penalty as he wants, instead of only -5 to hit/+5 AC. Now, you're still limited by your base attack bonus, but let's consider a nice Juvenile Red Dragon, with a base attack bonus of +16. It's supposed to be a CR 9 encounter, but if it uses Expertise, it would have an AC of 40. I doubt that many 9th level characters have an attack bonus of +20.

The Dragon would still have an attack bonus of +8 with it's bite, and if it used Flyby Attack it could easily strafe a party to death quite quickly.

Has BADD already considered this? I think it's a very nice idea.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Sure, it's a nice idea, but a juvenile red could never have the feat. The earliest it could get this feat is when it becomes an Adult. Why, you ask? Because it requires an Int of 13 or more, and the Expertise feat, which also requires a 13 or greater Int score. Juvenile reds have a 14 Int score, so they could pick up Expertise. But they don't get another feat until they become an Adult. So only Adult or older dragons would be able to do this, and other feats usually take precedence.

 

[Darkness]

Sure, it's a nice idea, but a juvenile red could never have the feat. The earliest it could get this feat is when it becomes an Adult. Why, you ask? Because it requires an Int of 13 or more, and the Expertise feat, which also requires a 13 or greater Int score. Juvenile reds have a 14 Int score, so they could pick up Expertise. But they don't get another feat until they become an Adult. So only Adult or older dragons would be able to do this, and other feats usually take precedence.

Uhh, no. Remember - Ability scores in the MM are only averages; individuals' scores can - and often will - vary. Otherwise, no human (or elf, or dwarf, or...) could take Expertise before 8th or 12th level (assuming an 11 Int or a 10 Int, respectively).

 

[Jeremy]

So in answer to your original question,

Yes, it is a double-naughty rat bastard trick that BADD should definately consider, and should not be employed by DM's who are timid about PC deaths or total party defeats (not to be confused with TPK's).

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Uhh, no. Remember - Ability scores in the MM are only averages; individuals' scores can - and often will - vary. Otherwise, no human (or elf, or dwarf, or...) could take Expertise before 8th or 12th level (assuming an 11 Int or a 10 Int, respectively).

Yes, I know that.

I was simply going by the MM stats. You can always change them for a particular dragon, or elf. But the average red dragon still cannot do this, just like your average human or elf will not have the Expertise or Power Attack feats. Adventurers are a differant story, though.

Also, for those who might want to try this tactic, and it is a good tactic, you should raise the CR of the dragon a little for his better than average ability score(s) and feats.

 

[Crothian]

It's a good and fun tactic that really leaves the PCs in a pickle. I love the Expertise feats and the ability to fight defensively. They really can save a character or a monster's butt.

 

[Darkness]

... the average red dragon still cannot do this, just like your average human or elf will not have the Expertise or Power Attack feats. Adventurers are a differant story, though.

Well, come to think of it, 'Average' equals 15-point point buy (Note: some MM races vary by a point or two, but that's the exception rather than the rule) or the average score if you roll stats with 3d6. Standard MM critters distribute their points in the following way: Half of the stats get 3 points each, while the other half get 2 points each. However, individuals won't necessarily spend these 15 points this way (or, if you roll their stats, very few will roll all 10s and 11s). Thus, a dragon can easily lower Str (or Wis, or Cha, or...) by a couple points and raise Int to 13 instead without a change in his overall power level.

Also, for those who might want to try this tactic, and it is a good tactic, you should raise the CR of the dragon a little for his better than average ability score(s) and feats.

I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you also increase human NPCs' CRs for slightly higher stats.