Small Gods, Epic (Six) Heroes

[Shades of Green]

I've been thinking about this for the last year or so: this thread and E6 go together like chocolate and peanut butter.

Imagine a world where all (or almost all) monsters above CR 6 are more powerful than any ordinary mortal, any monsters above CR10 are more powerful even than the mightiest epic heroes, and any monsters above CR 12 cannot be slain in a stand-up fight (as opposed to trickery and/or special strategies and/or exploiting weaknesses) even by the greatest heroes of legend. An adult dragon, for example, would be a mighty god in such a world - standing clearly above any mortal; a being to be worshiped.

Imagine a world with an animistic cosmology where there are no omniscient gods, no transcendental gods, no main pantheon, but rather a huge number of small, local gods with limited power and areas of influence. The divine becomes personal; no longer you are praying to a distant, impersonal deity, but rather trafficking with the nymph of the nearby stream for safe passage, with the local dragon for luck, with your ancestors' spirits for prowess in war, and with a local satyr or dryad for bountiful harvests. All gods are personal; all gods are NPCs; and all religious activity involves role-playing the trafficking between mortals and the numerous, local small gods.

With E6, everything is reframed in power, making otherwise weaker monsters powerful on the overall power scale. A Nymph, at CR 6, is no longer a relatively weak being, but rather a significant local goddess who equals in power to great heroes; a Dire Bear, at CR 7, is a mighty Bear God, king of the forest, a horror if provoked; a mighty hero cursed with vampirism (a CR 8 vampire) would be the focus of a curse set upon an entire valley. So even ordinary D20 MM creatures can become local gods.

Magic Items above a Caster Level of 6 would either be forged by some small god, or actually be a small god - the embodiment of a powerful ancestor in the form of a sword, for example. Most magic weapons with a bonus of +3 and more would actually be sentient - and divine in nature.

Gods could be fought with and sometimes defeated by mortal heroes, even through combating the mightier gods would require the hero to resort to trickery and/or to do research and find out the god's weaknesses.

Gods should probably be given "divine" or "thematic" powers, some replicating spells (including ones that are above and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals), others being broader. Ritual magic would involved negotiating with gods and getting them to use their powers on one's behalf.

I'm even thinking of a cleric/druid replacement - a Shaman? A Priest? - who would probably be similar to a Sorcerer (or replace the sorcerer?) and learn spells directly from Gods; maybe even Wizards will learn their spells as well from these spiritual beings (imagine a Wizard negotiating with a mighty dragon in order to get that dragon to teach him Fireball)?

What do you think about these ideas?

 

[FreeXenon]

I don't play E6 or 3.5 any more... having moved on to 4e, but this sounds cool to me.

 

[Shades of Green]

Slwoyach, why did you write that this was very un-D&D? After all, it works very well with very D&Dish idea that everything has HP and everything can be killed in combat - even gods...

 

[Shades of Green]

There are two approaches to magic in such a setting - the conservative approach and the radical approach.

Using the conservative approach, most classes stay the same, with the exception of the Cleric and Druid which are replaced by a Shaman (or Priest) class. The Shaman would use a spell-list combining the Druid and Cleric spells, and would have abilities to influence small Gods in negotiation (maybe a level-dependent bonus to Diplomacy when dealing with Gods? Maybe an ability to "turn" minor Gods?). All other spellcasting follows the D20-E6 norms.

In the radical approach, on the other hand, all magic comes from the small Gods; there would be only one primary spellcasting class, a Shaman or Sorcerer, which would be a spontaneous caster similar to the Sorcerer but capable of learning any spell in the book if he or she finds a God to teach it to them (and subject to "spells known" restriction by level). Secondary spellcasters (e.g. Bards) will learn and cast their spells in the same way, albeit with a limited spell progression.

Which approach do you think would be more appealing to most players?

 

[Niccodaemus]

I don't think this precludes a pantheon

I like the idea very much. But rather than precluding a pantheon, perhaps the pantheon is just not very "Hands On". The pantheon can be background characters for story, rather than providers of spells of any sort.

I'm working on a campaign world that would work very well with this type of system. I've created a blog for it so that people can use it for non-commercial purposes. The blog is intended for player info. Anyone interested in DMing in it can email me for DM only info.

Shatterworld

 

[slwoyach]

Slwoyach, why did you write that this was very un-D&D? After all, it works very well with very D&Dish idea that everything has HP and everything can be killed in combat - even gods...

It's un-DND in that the gods are walking the Earth with mortals, directly receiving tribute. It's far closer to real-world myth, Conan, and a few other pulp fiction flavors than it is to DND with it's very vague detached gods who seem to serve no purpose other than being a way to cast spells in armor and something to kill at high levels.

 

[Umbran]

I think there's one issue you'd have to deal with. It isn't insurmountable, but it is notable.

When your gods are distant, never seen, mysterious beings, and you pray to them and do everything you're supposed to do to supplicate them, and nothing happens, well, gods are mysterious, right?

When your god is physically present, and you can interact with them, they need to deliver, or nobody will worship them. That CR6 Dryad? By the rules she has no clear way to give anyone a bountiful harvest. Why is anyone praying to her? I think you'll find that's true of most of the lower-tier monsters, as written - they generally don't have abilities to give humans much of anything in terms of boons. They're written to be combat challenges, and are powerful compared to humans, but is it power in the proper form to make then suitable as a god?

Trafficking with the nymph for safe passage isn't so much an act of faith or worship as it is a protection racket. Sure, folks will pay some tribute to not be molested, but that is a bit of a different dynamic.

You have to think long and hard to figure out why locals are turning to these creatures for things, and make sure that the creatures have some way to fill the role, or the players will notice.

 

[Shades of Green]

When your god is physically present, and you can interact with them, they need to deliver, or nobody will worship them. That CR6 Dryad? By the rules she has no clear way to give anyone a bountiful harvest. Why is anyone praying to her? I think you'll find that's true of most of the lower-tier monsters, as written - they generally don't have abilities to give humans much of anything in terms of boons. They're written to be combat challenges, and are powerful compared to humans, but is it power in the proper form to make then suitable as a god?

Trafficking with the nymph for safe passage isn't so much an act of faith or worship as it is a protection racket. Sure, folks will pay some tribute to not be molested, but that is a bit of a different dynamic.

You have to think long and hard to figure out why locals are turning to these creatures for things, and make sure that the creatures have some way to fill the role, or the players will notice.

This is exactly the reason I'd give all of these "Gods" specific "thematic" (non-combat for the worst part) powers in addition to the combat abilities; the Dryad, for example, should have power over plants and harvest, and maybe even weather. So people would worship her and give her offerings in return for her using her powers to bless their crops and maybe even bring better rains.

This is more or less how religion works in animistic cultures, such as Shinto; sure, in real life you can't see the Kami themselves, but they still have small, local shrines where people leave offerings for their blessings.

 

[Imaro]

I think there's one issue you'd have to deal with. It isn't insurmountable, but it is notable.

When your gods are distant, never seen, mysterious beings, and you pray to them and do everything you're supposed to do to supplicate them, and nothing happens, well, gods are mysterious, right?

When your god is physically present, and you can interact with them, they need to deliver, or nobody will worship them. That CR6 Dryad? By the rules she has no clear way to give anyone a bountiful harvest. Why is anyone praying to her? I think you'll find that's true of most of the lower-tier monsters, as written - they generally don't have abilities to give humans much of anything in terms of boons. They're written to be combat challenges, and are powerful compared to humans, but is it power in the proper form to make then suitable as a god?

Trafficking with the nymph for safe passage isn't so much an act of faith or worship as it is a protection racket. Sure, folks will pay some tribute to not be molested, but that is a bit of a different dynamic.

You have to think long and hard to figure out why locals are turning to these creatures for things, and make sure that the creatures have some way to fill the role, or the players will notice.

First, this is a really cool idea... very Exalted in feel, yet allowing one to slowly grow into their power instead of starting with it.

This is a good point Umbran... I think as a suggestion, maybe looking at incantations from Unearthed Arcana might be a way to go. The longer casting times would mean the creatures CR's for fights wouldn't need to be altered, but when given time and preperation they would have access to powerful magics. as DM you could even select or create custom incantations for them. I would probably houserule the backlash/failure rules depending on the feel I wanted.

 

[Shades of Green]

A few examples for thematic God powers would be things such as increasing crop yields, influencing the weather, bringing luck (say, a +1 bonus to saving throws and attack rolls for one day), curing diseases, restoring drained abilities or levels, calming turbulent river water, bringing wind to a ship and so on. The "catch" with such thematic powers would be that they'll take the God some time to cast (10 minutes? an hour? 1 day?), so they won't be very useful in combat, thus leaving the CR as-is. Some of the mightier Gods (CR above 6) would even be able to fashion artefacts - powerful magic items that no mortal could ever craft - but that would take long time and a major investment of energy and resources, so these would be rare.

Take the Dryad for example. I'd give her the following Divine Powers:

Nature's Cure (Sp). The Dryad may cast Cure Serious Wounds up to three times a day, with a casting time of ten minutes each.

Nature's Bounty (Sp). Once a year, the Dryad may cast a version of Plant Growth which only leads to the Enrichment effect BUT affects the fields of an entire village at once. Casting time is one day.

Nature's Curse (Sp). Once a year, the Dryad may cast a version of Diminish Plants which only leads to the Stunt Growth effect BUT affects the fields of an entire village at once. Casting time is one day.

What do you think? Would these be fitting and fair?