Small Weapons?

[Hypersmurf]

[can the giant throw the shortsword he uses like a dagger?]

With a -4 penalty, as an improvised thrown weapon. Shortswords don't have a range increment.

[can the halfling throw the dagger he uses like a shortsword?]

Of course. Daggers have a range increment.

-Hyp.

 

[Quasqueton]

With a -4 penalty, as an improvised thrown weapon. Shortswords don't have a range increment.

Of course. Daggers have a range increment.

And therein lies the beauty of 3.5's weapon system. A dagger is a dagger, and uses the dagger rule for any size wielder.

Quasqueton

 

[Storyteller01]

(
I'm not saying the 3.0 weapon size system was bad, I'm just saying 3.5 did make it simpler and more straight forward.

Quasqueton

I'd have to disagree. Before, you compared weapon size to user size, then said yea or nea on the use.

Now, you have to figure out weapon to user size ratio, apply appropriate negatives for use of said item (great, more math! Ranks right up there with synergy bonuses for unneeded mechanics...), and have to explain to players using Small or smaller creatures that they get jacked repeatedly because the world is run by Medium or larger creatures.

 

[Storyteller01]

And therein lies the beauty of 3.5's weapon system. A dagger is a dagger, and uses the dagger rule for any size wielder.

Quasqueton

But a shortsword is basically a large dagger, with the same balance and use when you compare the mass. Why does a dagger get a throwing range? Rememeber, not all daggers can be thrown effectively. They are all different when you compare balance and use. Few were actually designed to be thrown.

 

[Quasqueton]

I'd have to disagree. Before, you compared weapon size to user size, then said yea or nea on the use.

Now, you have to figure out weapon to user size ratio, apply appropriate negatives for use of said item.

I call "baloney" on this being a problem. How often have you seen PCs try to use "off-size" weapons? And of those [rare] times, how often is the size difference more than one catagory?

and have to explain to players using Small or smaller creatures that they get jacked repeatedly because the world is run by Medium or larger creatures.

Why? Do not Small creatures make there own weapons in your world? Or are Medium-size creatures the only ones who make swords? Can the halfling not go to the same shop as his human companion and buy a Small shortsword? It really seems to me that you are manufacturing problems, or ignoring built-in solutions, just to state your "hat of .35".

But a shortsword is basically a large dagger, with the same balance and use when you compare the mass. Why does a dagger not get a throwing range? Rememeber, not all daggers can be thrown effectively. They are all different when you compare balance and use.

So a wizard should be able to use a shortsword just like he's proficient in a dagger? And in D&D, all daggers can be thrown effectively (within the proficiency and capability of the character) unless it is really a shortsword. But what is your point here?

Quasqueton

 

[Storyteller01]

I call "baloney" on this being a problem. How often have you seen PCs try to use "off-size" weapons? And of those [rare] times, how often is the size difference more than one catagory?

Why? Do not Small creatures make there own weapons in your world? Or are Medium-size creatures the only ones who make swords? Can the halfling not go to the same shop as his human companion and buy a Small shortsword? It really seems to me that you are manufacturing problems, or ignoring built-in solutions, just to state your "hat of .35".

So a wizard should be able to use a shortsword just like he's proficient in a dagger? And in D&D, all daggers can be thrown effectively (within the proficiency and capability of the character) unless it is really a shortsword. But what is your point here?

Quasqueton

First, if it isn't such a problem, then why invent the mechanic in the first place?

As for halflings having thier own shops and weapons, yea they probably do. But concidering how often I've seen this arguement brought into discussion, I'd say that most don't think of this, or halflings are forced into the minority.

Also, if a weapons maker is making weapons for both halflings and humans, how different can they be?

Given the overlap between the sizes of shortsword and a dagger (a Bowie knife, is it a knife or shortsword. It's size gives a greater damage, but it can also be thrown VERY effectively), technically yes, said wizard could. The only difference is that one is called a shortsword, the other a dagger. Make a big knife and call it a dagger. If someone else calls it a shortsword, is it?

On this note, why can't a wizard use a small shortsword if he is proficient with a dagger? The main difference is that one has a range increment while the other does not. Both are peircing, and both have the same threat range (I believe). A wizard cannot use a weapon that has the exact same specs just because one is called 'dagger' and the other is called 'shortsword'?

 

[Sheng Long Gradilla]

What about the relative size of the handle? The handle must me sized properly. If it's too thick, you can barely hold it properly; if it's too thin, holding it becomes unconfortable, and it's harder to hold firmly.

 

[IcyCool]

I'll hop in and take a stab at this.

First, if it isn't such a problem, then why invent the mechanic in the first place?

It wasn't a problem that needed a solution. It was a mechanic that wasn't defined well. Clarifications and better definitions are a good thing. Now we have a good, solid, well-defined mechanic. I can't see how that is anything but a good thing.

As for halflings having thier own shops and weapons, yea they probably do. But concidering how often I've seen this arguement brought into discussion, I'd say that most don't think of this, or halflings are forced into the minority.

Then I would happily tell you that while things might be rough for small races in your world, any decent sized city in my world will have small sized equipment available. In a small human village, small folks would have to comission something, as most things will be for the medium sized inhabitants. And likewise for a human in a halfling village. In short, this is really a flavor issue, and I'm not sure why you mention it. If a DM wants to screw over anyone playing a small race, that doesn't have anything to do with the game mechanics.

Also, if a weapons maker is making weapons for both halflings and humans, how different can they be?

Differences in grip size, weight, and balance to name the big three. That alone should make enough difference to warrant the attack penalty for using a weapon not sized for you.

Given the overlap between the sizes of shortsword and a dagger (a Bowie knife, is it a knife or shortsword. It's size gives a greater damage, but it can also be thrown VERY effectively), technically yes, said wizard could. The only difference is that one is called a shortsword, the other a dagger. Make a big knife and call it a dagger. If someone else calls it a shortsword, is it?

On this note, why can't a wizard use a small shortsword if he is proficient with a dagger? The main difference is that one has a range increment while the other does not. Both are peircing, and both have the same threat range (I believe). A wizard cannot use a weapon that has the exact same specs just because one is called 'dagger' and the other is called 'shortsword'?

Yay, another person who would let my wizard use a "greatsword"! Cause, see, it's just a large dagger via 3.0 rules.

As to your example, IMO a bowie knife would be classed as a dagger.

 

[Storyteller01]

It wasn't a problem that needed a solution. It was a mechanic that wasn't defined well. Clarifications and better definitions are a good thing. Now we have a good, solid, well-defined mechanic. I can't see how that is anything but a good thing.


Then I would happily tell you that while things might be rough for small races in your world, any decent sized city in my world will have small sized equipment available. In a small human village, small folks would have to comission something, as most things will be for the medium sized inhabitants. And likewise for a human in a halfling village. In short, this is really a flavor issue, and I'm not sure why you mention it. If a DM wants to screw over anyone playing a small race, that doesn't have anything to do with the game mechanics.

Differences in grip size, weight, and balance to name the big three. That alone should make enough difference to warrant the attack penalty for using a weapon not sized for you.



Yay, another person who would let my wizard use a "greatsword"! Cause, see, it's just a large dagger via 3.0 rules.

As to your example, IMO a bowie knife would be classed as a dagger.

Problem is, it's not a situation that can be well defined. What one culture conciders a dagger, others may concider something else. Also, until mass production was introduced, weapons were usually custom made. Even those that weren't did not have the exact size, weight, or balance. Each was unique. A dagger for one person will vary in length compared to the size, weight and balance that another is comfortable with. And this is just comparing humans! Clarification is good in some instances, but how can you clarify something that never had a standard until roughly a century ago? And even with such clarification, they is an incredible amount of room for interpretation...

As for those in towns, look at it ecomonically (the bane of all creative thought). If a halfling comes into my shop asking for a small shortsword, what will I do? Will I get my materials and make a new blade, or use a premade dagger blade? Statistically, they are all but identical. As mentioned earlier, the main difference would be weight and balance. Since the weight of any piercing blade is closest to the handle (regardless of size) all I would have to do is adjust the handle.

As for size mechanics, how many people here have played with toy swords meant for your children? Was it that hard? Did you feel overly burdened with the change in size or weight? Granted, toys are not weighted the same as a weapon, but how is it different from using a bat made for you and using a bat made for your children (one handed, no less)?

Now reverse that. Is it hard to use a metal pipe with a 4" diameter? Any mugger can tell you that it isn't, and most one handed swords won't weight more than 4 to 5 lbs. Even that is concidered heavy...

As for letting a wizard use a greatsword, obviously not. He has not been trained in the use of two handed weapons or weapons with that mass. Now if he ran into a 'halfling shortsword' or a small short sword, then yes, he could use it without penaly, as its stats are identical to that of the dagger he has been trained to use.

 

[FireLance]

Problem is, it's not a situation that can be well defined. What one culture conciders a dagger, others may concider something else. Also, until mass production was introduced, weapons were usually custom made. Even those that weren't did not have the exact size, weight, or balance. Each was unique. A dagger for one person will vary in length compared to the size, weight and balance that another is comfortable with. And this is just comparing humans! Clarification is good in some instances, but how can you clarify something that never had a standard until roughly a century ago? And even with such clarification, they is an incredible amount of room for interpretation...

I can clarify it because I'm playing a game, and I'm using the game's definitions. More importantly, when I'm playing or running a game, I want to know the exact statistics of the weapon my characyer or NPC is using. I'm willing to fudge a bit when it comes to variations of length, hilt size, weight, balance, material, etc. because for playability reasons, my game resolution mechanic isn't complex enough, unlike the great AI-run, full-sensory VR game that is Real Life (tm).

Now, if the argument is that there is sufficient variation among Medium shortswords that a Small longsword can be considered one, that's fine. That's what the optional weapon equivalency rules are for.

For me though, the idea that smaller or larger races would make and use their own smaller or larger versions of the different weapons makes sense and appeals to me. I will make a distinction between Medium shortwords and Small longswords, thank you.