Small Weapons?

[CRGreathouse]

Why? the stronger halfling is capable of genrating more short term power. May not be able to lift the same amount, but that's no reason why he can't do the same damage die with the same weapon. If the end of a 1 lbs stick is travelling x mph, it will do the same damage regardless of who it was made for.

Wait -- we have two characters of equal strength (though not equal Strength scores) dealing the same average damage, but it's still not good enough -- they have to be the same dice as well?

If the dice were the same, the Strength scores would have to be the same as well, or the halfling would inexplicably deal more damage than the human. This would lead (to keep the same lifting range for halflings) an increase in the Strength penalty of halflings, which would in turn cause problems at the lower end of the Strength scale (since wizards would conceivable have to deal with a total Str of less than 1). Fixing this would cause more problems, most notably with poisons and such.

Alternatively, we could just assume that 1d4+1 and 1d6 are just two ways of generating the same average damage, ignoring the small differences between them, and chalk that up to the same sort of inconsistancies we must put up with by virtue of usihng dice (discreet probability generators) instead of continuous generators.

I mean let's face it... the current situation is good, and the alternative is a lot of work for little/no gain and much loss of compatibility.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why enforce a 'realistic' ruling if it can be proven otherwise?

If you're the DM, nobody's forcing you to.

-Hyp.

 

[Bauglir]

But we're talking (typing) about small quarterstaff vs a medium baton or club. Both items are a 3 foot long, one inch thick piece of wood (operating on the premis that a quarter staff is a double club, comparable to a double- sword or axe). Why, if it is a club, does a halfling take a -2 to hit if they use it as a quarterstaff. Or conversly, if it was carved by a halfling, why does a human take a -2 to hit if they use it as a club?

They're not exactly the same weapon though. Look at the picture of a club in the phb - it tapers outwards, and is heavier at the 'business' end. This weight helps it to gather momentum on a swing. The small quarterstaff doesn't have this - it's just a stick, hence not quite so comfortable to use.

 

[Storyteller01]

Wait -- we have two characters of equal strength (though not equal Strength scores) dealing the same average damage, but it's still not good enough -- they have to be the same dice as well?

If the dice were the same, the Strength scores would have to be the same as well, or the halfling would inexplicably deal more damage than the human. This would lead (to keep the same lifting range for halflings) an increase in the Strength penalty of halflings, which would in turn cause problems at the lower end of the Strength scale (since wizards would conceivable have to deal with a total Str of less than 1). Fixing this would cause more problems, most notably with poisons and such.

Alternatively, we could just assume that 1d4+1 and 1d6 are just two ways of generating the same average damage, ignoring the small differences between them, and chalk that up to the same sort of inconsistancies we must put up with by virtue of usihng dice (discreet probability generators) instead of continuous generators.

I mean let's face it... the current situation is good, and the alternative is a lot of work for little/no gain and much loss of compatibility.

Sorry. Operating on the premise that both the human and the small criiter using said stick (Small Quarterstaff/Medium Club) would also have the same strength (say a 12) for the purpose of this example. If both races are capable of using the exact same weapon with (abstractly) the same amount of force (given with the +1 to damage), why is one doing more or less damage (via the hit die), or the other taking a -2 to hit?

Using the chimp as an example, would it be doing less damage because the stick he's using to beat said human is sized for them? It definetly isn't getting a -2 to hit, given that they use said tools in the wild as well as in capativity (so we can assume a certain level of 'training' in this simple weapon. Given that chimps do use tools, of course).

 

[Storyteller01]

They're not exactly the same weapon though. Look at the picture of a club in the phb - it tapers outwards, and is heavier at the 'business' end. This weight helps it to gather momentum on a swing. The small quarterstaff doesn't have this - it's just a stick, hence not quite so comfortable to use.

But half a pool cue only tapers slighly at the business end, and batons/martail arts fighting sticks don't taper at all. All of these examples have been classified as clubs in numerous publications, and everyone seems to believe that this is a correct assessment. How are these different from the Small quarterstaff, especially since the given 'meatyness' in any of these examples is no more than a few ounces? Why is a human taking a -2 to hit with said quarterstaff if he can use the above examples without penalty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Using the chimp as an example, would it be doing less damage because the stick he's using to beat said human is sized for them? It definetly isn't getting a -2 to hit, given that they use said tools in the wild as well as in capativity (so we can assume a certain level of 'training' in this simple weapon. Given that chimps do use tools, of course).

If it's a Medium stick and the chimp is Small, he takes a -2. If it's a Small stick, he doesn't.

Training has nothing to do with it. The chimp could have Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization (stick), and if it's a Medium stick, he takes a -2.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why is a human taking a -2 to hit with said quarterstaff if he can use the above examples without penalty.

Because he's one size category larger than the weapon's size category.

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

If we are taking it out of D&D terms then we have to look at what strength is. A 10 strength human and a 12 strength halfing may both be able to lift the 100 lbs over their head but they aren't using only their arms. Legs and back go into it. The halfling is not going to have nearly the same amount of muscle mass in their arms as the human does. Thus the reasoning for reduced carrying capacity. Also an explanation for the reduced damage die. Halfings have reduced wait on top of that meaning less force behing their blows. If you have ever wielded a sword or club then you know your body mass impacts the strength of your blows.

Exactly my point. A weapon will do the same damage when moving at a given speed and power, regardless to who is actually using it. It goes back to F=ma.

If a human does 1d6 with a club or baton in one hand, why is a halfling with the same Strength, using two hands, generating the same power suddenly doing 1d4?

So why does a human take a -2 to hit and a 1d4 to damage when using a 3' long stick 1" thick Small Quaterstaff as a club, simply because it is called a Small Quarterstaff. Especially when human monks using same weapons as clubs gain a 1d6 hit die with no penalty to hit?

As I had mentioned earlier, if this is the case with the Small Quarterstaff/Medium club, then where else would this conundrum apply?

 

[Storyteller01]

Because he's one size category larger than the weapon's size category.

-Hyp.

But there is no diffence between this weapon and one he can use without penalty. None, zippo, zilch, nada...

Both weapons have the exact same dimensions. They are different in name only.

 

[Storyteller01]

If it's a Medium stick and the chimp is Small, he takes a -2. If it's a Small stick, he doesn't.

Training has nothing to do with it. The chimp could have Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization (stick), and if it's a Medium stick, he takes a -2.

-Hyp.

Not to be snarky, but can you please define the difference between a Small stick and a Medium stick?