Small Weapons?

[Hypersmurf]

Not to be snarky, but can you please define the difference between a Small stick and a Medium stick?

Whatever the DM says it is.

If it's just a stick, then I'd be quite happy for the chimp to use it as an improvised Small quarterstaff, dealing 1d4 damage with a -4 attack penalty, and for the human to use it as an improvised Medium club, dealing 1d6 damage with a -4 attack penalty.

-Hyp.

 

[TheEvil]

Exactly my point. A weapon will do the same damage when moving at a given speed and power, regardless to who is actually using it. It goes back to F=ma.

If a human does 1d6 with a club or baton in one hand, why is a halfling with the same Strength, using two hands, generating the same power suddenly doing 1d4?

So why does a human take a -2 to hit and a 1d4 to damage when using a 3' long stick 1" thick Small Quaterstaff as a club, simply because it is called a Small Quarterstaff. Especially when human monks using same weapons as clubs gain a 1d6 hit die with no penalty to hit?

As I had mentioned earlier, if this is the case with the Small Quarterstaff/Medium club, then where else would this conundrum apply?

Important physics point:

The acceleration is not the same. The length of the arm is an important factor in the speed of the blow. A longer arm allows for greater acceleration. Thus, all else being equal, small creatures can't hit as hard as larger ones, even with the same piece of wood.

 

[Storyteller01]

Important physics point:

The acceleration is not the same. The length of the arm is an important factor in the speed of the blow. A longer arm allows for greater acceleration. Thus, all else being equal, small creatures can't hit as hard as larger ones, even with the same piece of wood.

Also remember that the greatest acceleration accures during the final snap (those trained in martial arts don't use overhead strikes with clubs. Leaves too many openings). So a monk does the greatest damage while accelerating along the length of the arm. Said halfling is covering tha same distance (or more) when using the same mechanics (quarterstaffs accelerate from over the shoulder, with hands remaining at the center).

 

[Sheng Long Gradilla]

Also remember that the greatest acceleration accures during the final snap (those trained in martial arts don't use overhead strikes with clubs. Leaves too many openings). So a monk does the greatest damage while accelerating along the length of the arm. Said halfling is covering tha same distance (or more) when using the same mechanics (quarterstaffs accelerate from over the shoulder, with hands remaining at the center).

I have to agree here. Even if there are many variants among chinese, japanese, korean and other fighting styles, a quarterstaff is used pretty much the same way in all of them. Anyways, I guess there are too many things the rules don't do as in real life. I never liked the way the quarterstaff is handled at all in the game rules. It's one of the things I have been thinking to change for the set of variant rules I am working on.

If you read my post on the House Rules forum (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112019), you can look at what I have in documents right now. The Families, Feats and Classes documents are outdated already, as I made some substantian changes to the families, mainly toning them down a lot (stripped down half of the features and converted them into feats), then increased the classes' number of feats a little to compensate.

The specifics about the damage for "dual-headed" weapons (as I classified the quarterstaff and other weapons which can be used in a similar fashion) is not defined yet, but in the Classes document you can look at the Attack Bonus when using them. I would like to have some discussion on both damage and attack bonus for those weapons. No one has replied to my post yet

 

[Meeki]

Exactly my point. A weapon will do the same damage when moving at a given speed and power, regardless to who is actually using it. It goes back to F=ma.

If a human does 1d6 with a club or baton in one hand, why is a halfling with the same Strength, using two hands, generating the same power suddenly doing 1d4?

So why does a human take a -2 to hit and a 1d4 to damage when using a 3' long stick 1" thick Small Quaterstaff as a club, simply because it is called a Small Quarterstaff. Especially when human monks using same weapons as clubs gain a 1d6 hit die with no penalty to hit?

As I had mentioned earlier, if this is the case with the Small Quarterstaff/Medium club, then where else would this conundrum apply?

Its not moving at the same power. You didnt understand what I typed, a halfing is using less mass to accelerate the weapon. First off a halfing CAN weild a d6 quarter staff but will take a penalty. Secondly a halfling quarter staff and a human quarterstaff have different diameters. The way D&D displays the size difference is the lower damage die. You are just trying to make a point that makes little sense. Smaller weapons do less damage thats that. Your arguements seem like you are stretching reality ( i realize we are talking about D&D but if your going to bring real world physics into D&D). Go try weilding a log and then try weilding a quarterstaff, you tell me which one you can get more force behind. Just accept the damn damage die and stop trying to change something that doesnt need to be changed. Just be lucky that small polearms still have reach in this edition.

Only if I had my Mangler CRGreathouse... only if... *inside joke*

 

[Pbartender]

Not to be snarky, but can you please define the difference between a Small stick and a Medium stick?

2 points of possible damage, and a -2 penalty to attack.

 

[TheEvil]

Also remember that the greatest acceleration accures during the final snap (those trained in martial arts don't use overhead strikes with clubs. Leaves too many openings). So a monk does the greatest damage while accelerating along the length of the arm. Said halfling is covering tha same distance (or more) when using the same mechanics (quarterstaffs accelerate from over the shoulder, with hands remaining at the center).

Not to be snarky, but so what? That doesn't change the fact that a longer arm length and a greater body mass results in greater force of the blow.

It is also starting to sound like your problem is that small monks do less damage with monkish weapons then humans do. Are you complaining about the general populace of or about the specially trained? You have gone to great lengths to point out that those with marital training are able to use off sized weapons without any great difficulty. You have also pointed out how much variation there is in grip size in historical weapons. If you really want more realism, why not add a feat or allow warrior class characters and monks to use weapons to use of one size off weapons without penality if you really think it adds more realism? As another option, why not have weapons that are usable between two sizes without penality. If nothing else, I think you have made a pretty good case for this.

One thing you have not done, however, is shown how the average person would be able to use an off sized weapon as effectively as weapons actually made for their size.

Another point worth noting:
You use the example of a 11 year old using a wakazashi as why there shouldn't be a penalty to hit. A halfling is about the size of a 2-3 year old. How well do you think a 3 year old would handle a weapon sized for an adult?

 

[Lamoni]

Just had to add my two coppers. There have been MANY references to weapons from our world and history. It is true that there is a lot of variation in weapons, but the weapons as statted in D&D are specific weapons. If you want a longsword that does piercing damage, it isn't a D&D longsword. Call it something else and give it the stats you want. If you want a shortsword that does slashing damage, do the same thing. create your own weapon. If you want a club that is the same as a quarterstaff, call it something else and give it the appropriate stats. D&D is NOT meant to mirror real life.

To answer the question that was posed repeatedly. A D&D club is not the same as a D&D quarterstaff. If it was sized the same, it would be the same weapon. If you wanted to create a baton weapon that is sized the same as a small sized quarterstaff, it would most likely end up doing the same amount of damage as a small sized quarterstaff, but this still involves introducing a weapon that isn't standard. And after introducing this weapon, it would make sense to remove the -2 penalty in switching from medium baton to small quarterstaff (since you deliberately created it as being identical).

 

[Storyteller01]

Its not moving at the same power. You didnt understand what I typed, a halfing is using less mass to accelerate the weapon. First off a halfing CAN weild a d6 quarter staff but will take a penalty. Secondly a halfling quarter staff and a human quarterstaff have different diameters. The way D&D displays the size difference is the lower damage die. You are just trying to make a point that makes little sense. Smaller weapons do less damage thats that. Your arguements seem like you are stretching reality ( i realize we are talking about D&D but if your going to bring real world physics into D&D). Go try weilding a log and then try weilding a quarterstaff, you tell me which one you can get more force behind. Just accept the damn damage die and stop trying to change something that doesnt need to be changed. Just be lucky that small polearms still have reach in this edition.

Only if I had my Mangler CRGreathouse... only if... *inside joke*

Not at all. Given that the small quarter staff has the same mass as a baton (stated as a club), why is it doing less initial damage at the same distance? Understandable that humans can use more 'ummph', but your still accelerating the same weighted weapon the same distance.

 

[Storyteller01]

One thing you have not done, however, is shown how the average person would be able to use an off sized weapon as effectively as weapons actually made for their size.

Another point worth noting:
You use the example of a 11 year old using a wakazashi as why there shouldn't be a penalty to hit. A halfling is about the size of a 2-3 year old. How well do you think a 3 year old would handle a weapon sized for an adult?

1) An average person is using weapons that are off sized. How can a human use a longsword with 1" handle, then turn around and use a stilletto with a 1/2" to 3/8" handle? Also remember the, supposedly, your typical D&D character has been trained for some level of combat. Also, look at the variances in cooking knife size. Paring knife has a handle of 3/4" thick, 3/8" wide, and 4 inches long for a 2" blade. Does said cook take a -2 to use this tool? If not, then why is a human taking a -2 to use such a weapon? They use the same grip, and defence is handled well with Dex and armor (your problem is the fact that your trying to hit a moving, covered target with a weapon that does squat for damage). A himan has no problem handling this item. talk to husbands who have been assaulted by wives with this type of knife (yea, it does happen).

2) A three year old child can grip said handle just fine. Said 3 year old sytill can't lift 50 to 60 lbs (most anyway). A halfling of the same size with an 8 to 10 Str would have no problem manipulating the blade with the same sized hand.