Snapping someone out of hypnotism

[shilsen]

This situation came up in last evening's session:

A four-person party ran into an allip and three members were hypnotised by its babble ability. While the remaining PC vainly fought it (no magic weapon), the hypnotised wizard's pseudodragon familiar tried to snap him out of it by covering his eyes and ears. The DM wasn't sure if that should work and eventually ruled that it wouldn't.

I personally think the DM ruling was correct. Even though the spell says that only "creatures that can see or hear you are affected", it's not clear whether that applies at the time of casting or throughout the duration of the spell, and I interpret it to be the former.

Opinions?

 

[Thanee]

I'd say, that it is reasonable to assume, that the victim must see or hear the Allip throughout the duration, and that the fascination stops shortly after this is no longer the case.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As the spell has a set duration (rather than Concentration), I'd rule that the same as your DM, shilsen. The PC only needs to hear it long enough to force a Will save, then they're hypnotised for the duration of the effect, 2d4 rounds. Note that unlike Sleep, (a spell with a similar effect,) the spell Hypnotism upon which the Babble (Su) ability is based makes no provisions for a PC to be prematurely freed from the effect.

 

[shilsen]

Okay, so it's 1 vote each way (I'm conscientiously abstaining ). Someone care to break the tie?

 

[Methos of Aundair]

I've seen in a game I played in once where a player was affected by a fear affect. Another player went up to the affected player and kicked him in the nuts. His reasoning, by dealing damage to the other player (even though it was non-lethal) he should get a new saving throw. The DM allowed it. Of course the player rolled horrible so this went on several rounds, affectively keeping two players out of the combat for several rounds.

 

[shilsen]

I've seen in a game I played in once where a player was affected by a fear affect. Another player went up to the affected player and kicked him in the nuts. His reasoning, by dealing damage to the other player (even though it was non-lethal) he should get a new saving throw. The DM allowed it. Of course the player rolled horrible so this went on several rounds, affectively keeping two players out of the combat for several rounds.

I really hope you meant character when you typed "player". Otherwise, I have to assume that your group takes roleplaying to levels where they are kicking each other in the nuts

From a rules perspective, I can't see why dealing damage should give a save against a fear effect.

 

[Thanee]

Note that unlike Sleep, (a spell with a similar effect,) the spell Hypnotism upon which the Babble (Su) ability is based makes no provisions for a PC to be prematurely freed from the effect.

Note, that this is incorrect.

Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature’s ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.

The primary question to the question at hand is, what does "for as long as the effect lasts" mean. Is it the duration, or is it the source of the fascination? I'd assume they mean the latter, rather than the first, because it just makes more sense to me from a logical point of view.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Note, that this is incorrect.

You're right. I read the spell description but didn't check the description of Fascinated. Good catch.

The primary question to the question at hand is, what does "for as long as the effect lasts" mean. Is it the duration, or is it the source of the fascination? I'd assume they mean the latter, rather than the first, because it just makes more sense to me from a logical point of view.

Please note, it's just as logical to assert that "as long as the effect lasts" logically refers to the spell's duration.

Gripes about people using the word "logical" in their debates aside, I can see your point, when coupled with the quote refering to the Fascinate ability you provided. Clearly, as described in the ability description, the subject has to have something to pay attention to ("The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect..."), and if the droning/babbling/whatever ends, what would it be paying attention to for the remainder of the spell duration?

However, the other side of that argument is to note that Hypnotism does not have a duration of Concentration and, should we rule that the spell effect is broken when the fascinating effect ends, it must, or the effect would basically cease the moment after it was created. Since that would render the spell pointless, I still believe the fascination was meant to continue for the duration of the spell, even after the casting is over.

That said, Fascinate does, as the quote shows, provide for a means of being broken. Shake your comrade free as a standard action. I'd allow a pseudodragon to accomplish this with multiple wing-slaps to the face. Of course, he'd have to make his save against the Babble again the next round...

 

[Thanee]

Please note, it's just as logical to assert that "as long as the effect lasts" logically refers to the spell's duration.

That's not what I meant...

[qote]Gripes about people using the word "logical" in their debates aside, ...[/quote]

Shhh...

... I can see your point, when coupled with the quote refering to the Fascinate ability you provided. Clearly, as described in the ability description, the subject has to have something to pay attention to ("The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect..."), and if the droning/babbling/whatever ends, what would it be paying attention to for the remainder of the spell duration?

That is what I meant...

However, the other side of that argument is to note that Hypnotism does not have a duration of Concentration...

I don't know what this has to do with Concentration? The effect of Hypnotism, which is what you are fascinated by, lasts for 2d4 rounds. At least, that's how I see it. It makes you fascinating in some way for that duration.

That said, Fascinate does, as the quote shows, provide for a means of being broken. Shake your comrade free as a standard action. I'd allow a pseudodragon to accomplish this with multiple wing-slaps to the face.

Yep, this should, regardless of whether stopping to see/hear the Allip would work, be a valid course of action. The familiar must have failed the spellcraft check.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't know what this has to do with Concentration? The effect of Hypnotism, which is what you are fascinated by, lasts for 2d4 rounds. At least, that's how I see it. It makes you fascinating in some way for that duration.

The reason I refer to Concentration is because that duration would indicate some kind of ongoing means of sustaining the spell. Without it, there is no interaction between the spellcaster and the target after the spell has been cast.

Consider it this way. A spellcaster casts Hypnotize on a target, then is in turn struck by a Silence spell the next round. Is the Hypontize spell broken? If it had a duration of Concentration I might be pursuaded to say yes, since the spell description mentions a droning chant. I might accept an argument that the droning chant continues after the spell is cast, thus requiring the Concentration, thus if it is interrupted, the spell would break.

But since there's no Concentration involved, the spell does not need to be "sustained" in any way after the initial casting. You cast Hypnotize and bam! your target is fascinated. A Silence spell after that means nothing, because the spellcaster no longer needs to say anything, and the target doesn't need to hear anything.

So now back to the allip. When a PC first hears its Babble (Su), he makes his save or is hit with Hypnotize. Bam! He's under the effect. Now, whether he continues to hear the babbling makes no difference. He was hit by the effect, and now its a moot point. The only advantage to plugging his ears would be to prevent him from making another save 2d4 rounds later.