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Sneak Attack Rogue Optimization help.

Carpe DM

First Post
A few things:

1. Invisible Blade has been gutted by errata. The feint as free action is now only once per round. That plus the fact that they did NOT errata the obviously incorrect feats makes the class not worth while.

2. Same goes for Master Thrower. Touch attack is the thing to get here, but the sneak attack loss is not worth it damage-wise.

3. Craven (Champions of Ruin) is great for sneak attack damage optimization (sneak attack does +1 damage per ch. level? good lord), and is based on character level, of all the nutty stuff.

4. A one-level dip into Nightsong Enforcer is free (oh no, don't make me take Imp. initiative, or spec in hide!), and gets you a level ahead of the game in sneak attack progression.

Where I came out, statting a toon for damage and versatility turned into Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 3 / NS Enf 1 / whatever. Key feats are Imp. Initiative, TWF, Craven, Imp TWF, Daring Outlaw.

best,

Carpe
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Carpe DM said:
3. Craven (Champions of Ruin) is great for sneak attack damage optimization (sneak attack does +1 damage per ch. level? good lord), and is based on character level, of all the nutty stuff.

Just remember, you take a -7 [Edit - Error, it's actually -2 not -7] save penalty to fear effects...and you have to role play someone who is afraid fairly often :)
 
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SlagMortar

First Post
Consider Staggering Strike from Complete Adventurer
If you deal damage with a melee Sneak Attack, your opponent is Staggered for one round (FortNeg DC =
damage dealt). If the target is treated with the Heal skill (DC 15) or any spell that heals at least one hit
point, the effect is also removed. This feat has no effect on creatures immune to Sneak Attacks.
A Staggered creature can only take a standard action or move action each round so if you hit with your sneak attack you won't have to eat your enemy's full attack. Prerequisites are only BAB +4 and ability to sneak attack.
 

Jack Simth

First Post
You want to maximize sneak attack?

Everything you need is pure core.

Seriously; pure Rogue does the job (although with a dip in a PrC, you can get to 11d6 sneak attack at 20th).

Feat Tree:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Quick Draw
6) Weapon Finess
9) Improved two-Weapon Fighting
12) Eh, Pick Something (Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) isn't horrible - and is useful to this build; see below; Improved Initiative is also a winner)
15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18) Eh, Pick Something

If you drop an odd number of levels into Assasin, you get an extra d6 of sneak attack - so while a Rogue-6 would have 3d6 sneak attack, the Rogue-5/Assasin-1 would have 4d6. For the most part, though, the extra oomf isn't worth the loss of Rogue special abilities - but a Rogue doesn't have a capstone ability, so you don't need 20th.

Skills of note:
Max out Use Magic Device; it's your bread and butter skill.

How it works: You make sure every sneak attack is a touch attack.
How?
Well, you can apply Sneak Attack damage to anything with an attack roll.
Flasks of Acid (10 gp each), flasks of Alchemist's Fire (20 gp each) are both touch attacks, at range.
A Druid's Produce Flame spell is also a touch attack - either melee or ranged. Assuming you use the charges faster than the timer runs out, each attack costs you 15 gp (higher caster level groups them more, but as the number of attacks per charge is based on caster level, it's 15 gp per attack, provided you use them all up within the first 9 rounds). You want as high a caster level wand as you can muster. It's an Effect spell, so no worries about it discharging when you pull out another wand.
A Druid's Flame Blade spell is also a touch attack - melee only, and you're not proficient. Duration doesn't matter for as long as you'll have it out, so a caster level three wand will do just fine (unless your opponent has SR). 2nd level spell, though, so it starts out pricier. Plus you don't normally start out proficient with the scimitar ... but the -4 doesn't hurt too much when it's a touch attack.
A Sorcerer or Wizard's Chill Touch gives you one attack per caster level - this one isn't an effect spell, so you need to be careful with it. On the plus side, as a Touch spell, you can hold the charge forever. Again, 15 gp per attack - 1st level spell, caster level attacks per charge. Downside: You can't touch anything, as you'll waste a charge.

How's it all come together?

Well, at range, you win initiative (what, the Rogue can't win initiative? What's wrong with this picture?) and pelt the opposition with touch attacks (quickdraw flasks, usually; but Produce Flame will also work - two elements at range: Acid or Fire) - you can get a full attack in on the first round. Each one carrying those tasty, tasty sneak attack dice. And you're looking at about AC 10, in most cases, as they are flat-footed Touch attacks. If something tries to close to melee, you either kill it before it can, or use a spell that's touch range (Chill Touch, Flame Blade; Negative Energy and Fire), also from a wand.

They're all touch attacks, so even with the penalties, you're liable to hit on your last iterative attack.

How many CR 10 opponents that are subject to Sneak Attack can take the four 1d6 base + 5d6 Sneak Attack attacks that you can dish out every round at 10th? At 15th, it's six 1d6 base + 8d6 sneak attack. There's a little more or a little less depending on which exact method... but it gets sickening pretty quick.

And you've got Use Magic Device, and another 7+Intelligence Modifier skill points per level to play with, for things like, oh, Hide, Climb, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Open Locks, and Gather Information. So you can still do all the traditional rogue-type stuff, and play a backup caster through the use of scrolls and wands.

Do keep a backup pair of shortswords, though. And a luckblade just for the reroll.

And that's pure Core.
 

dirkformica

First Post
Staggering Strike can also be useful if you're a tripper or can get someone to trip/flank for you. For the majority of opponents, it's a move action to stand, and if they only have a move action while staggered...
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Jack Simth said:
You want to maximize sneak attack?

Everything you need is pure core.

Seriously; pure Rogue does the job (although with a dip in a PrC, you can get to 11d6 sneak attack at 20th).

Feat Tree:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Quick Draw
6) Weapon Finesse
9) Improved two-Weapon Fighting
12) Eh, Pick Something (Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) isn't horrible - and is useful to this build; see below; Improved Initiative is also a winner)
15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18) Eh, Pick Something

If you drop an odd number of levels into Assasin, you get an extra d6 of sneak attack - so while a Rogue-6 would have 3d6 sneak attack, the Rogue-5/Assasin-1 would have 4d6. For the most part, though, the extra oomf isn't worth the loss of Rogue special abilities - but a Rogue doesn't have a capstone ability, so you don't need 20th.

Skills of note:
Max out Use Magic Device; it's your bread and butter skill.

How it works: You make sure every sneak attack is a touch attack.
How?
Well, you can apply Sneak Attack damage to anything with an attack roll.
Flasks of Acid (10 gp each), flasks of Alchemist's Fire (20 gp each) are both touch attacks, at range.
A Druid's Produce Flame spell is also a touch attack - either melee or ranged. Assuming you use the charges faster than the timer runs out, each attack costs you 15 gp (higher caster level groups them more, but as the number of attacks per charge is based on caster level, it's 15 gp per attack, provided you use them all up within the first 9 rounds). You want as high a caster level wand as you can muster. It's an Effect spell, so no worries about it discharging when you pull out another wand.
A Druid's Flame Blade spell is also a touch attack - melee only, and you're not proficient. Duration doesn't matter for as long as you'll have it out, so a caster level three wand will do just fine (unless your opponent has SR). 2nd level spell, though, so it starts out pricier. Plus you don't normally start out proficient with the scimitar ... but the -4 doesn't hurt too much when it's a touch attack.
A Sorcerer or Wizard's Chill Touch gives you one attack per caster level - this one isn't an effect spell, so you need to be careful with it. On the plus side, as a Touch spell, you can hold the charge forever. Again, 15 gp per attack - 1st level spell, caster level attacks per charge. Downside: You can't touch anything, as you'll waste a charge.

How's it all come together?

Well, at range, you win initiative (what, the Rogue can't win initiative? What's wrong with this picture?) and pelt the opposition with touch attacks (quickdraw flasks, usually; but Produce Flame will also work - two elements at range: Acid or Fire) - you can get a full attack in on the first round. Each one carrying those tasty, tasty sneak attack dice. And you're looking at about AC 10, in most cases, as they are flat-footed Touch attacks. If something tries to close to melee, you either kill it before it can, or use a spell that's touch range (Chill Touch, Flame Blade; Negative Energy and Fire), also from a wand.

They're all touch attacks, so even with the penalties, you're liable to hit on your last iterative attack.

How many CR 10 opponents that are subject to Sneak Attack can take the four 1d6 base + 5d6 Sneak Attack attacks that you can dish out every round at 10th? At 15th, it's six 1d6 base + 8d6 sneak attack. There's a little more or a little less depending on which exact method... but it gets sickening pretty quick.

And you've got Use Magic Device, and another 7+Intelligence Modifier skill points per level to play with, for things like, oh, Hide, Climb, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Open Locks, and Gather Information. So you can still do all the traditional rogue-type stuff, and play a backup caster through the use of scrolls and wands.

Do keep a backup pair of shortswords, though. And a luckblade just for the reroll.

And that's pure Core.

Unfortunately your build mostly ignores the instances when you do not win initiative (which will happen), or when you cannot see your opponent during the first round, or your have negatives to your ranged attack (which will happen - like if you have an ally in front of you, and your opponent is in melee range of an ally, sucking up a big -8 to attack which negates the fact that it's a touch attack, or if your opponent is at a range more distant than your standard throwing range or even outside 30'), or when you have more than one opponent (which will happen often) or your opponent being immune or resistant to the thing you choose to initially attack with (which will happen) or your opponent not going down in the first attack.

In other words, you have no good way to get a sneak attack bonus outside of the first strike situation. Nothing to help you flank. Nothing to help you deny your opponent their dex bonus other than when they are flat-footed on winning initiative, and not enough money (because you are burning gold on every single attack) to afford things like a wand of improved invisibility.

Mind you, I think your build is interesting, and useful. Just pointing out some flaws. Maybe a level of Barbarian for speed and weapon proficiency, and maxing out tumble, to get into position to flank? Or carry a longspear to attack with reach (which gives you more flanking spots)? Or maxing hide and move silent, and making sure you have the Complete Adventurer rules down for moving away from hiding to make a melee attack that treats your opponent as flat footed? Or something to help get sneak attack after the first strike attacks.
 
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TheGogmagog

First Post
I was also wondering how he was going to sneak attack with produce flame after the first round, or what he was talking about when he hinted that the druation of flame blade could go beyond 1 min/level. Aside from those points I agree with most, non core certainly brings a lot to the table though.

Any thoughts on the PHII {UA} fighter variant of getting sneak attack instead of feats, it would make a powerful fighter/rogue build. I sketched one out and all your feats could be expended with improved two weapon fighting tree. {also, I think thug P51 and the sneak attack variant P58 both require giving up the 1st level feat, hence it's one or the other}

{note to self} Swordsage (tome of battle) Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel)
 
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glass

(he, him)
Zaruthustran said:
Take a level of Swordsage and get the stance that makes all adjacent targets become flanked. That'll space you from having to take Combat Reflexes, Adaptable Flanker, and Vexing Flanker. Instead, take Snap Kick (free extra attack), and then some of the "trade sneak attack dice for cool effects" feats.
Island of Blades. I was going to suggest that too.

If you don't want to giveup a full level, you can get it for two feats (I think).


glass.
 
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