& Sneak Attack: Skills and Proficiencies

[mach1.9pants]

Well to keep the thread length down I thought I'd split this part off from the rest of the Rogue class discussion. I feel it is something that is really important:

Not many skills and proficiencies:
"Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword

Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)"

So...Profs:
1. Either Leather means upto leather armour or godd old peasant padded is gone..
2. That is not many weapons, what happened to the rapier- the quintessintial rogue wep IMO. Does it include lots of basic weps (not listed- club for example) that everyone/ every heroic class is proficient with? Do we think that there are less weapons in 4E or are rogues losing out a lot. I'll add short bow to the list of missing important rogue (3E anyway) weapons?

Skills: 6 trained skills MAN I always thought that 8 was not enough, I know they have been folded into together but most Rogues in 3E played with a +2 INT so 10 (+1 for human). To me that is low. But I suppose it depends on what is included in 'theivery' if it is open locks, pick pockets/sleight of hand, find and disarm trap etc it brings you on par with 3E but certainly not more.
No INT bonus means you can do little to effect that. My next rogue? INT 8

Let the raging, err I mean discussions begin

EDIT: but man o man bring on 4E this looks awesome, and thanks WotC for some crunchy goodness

 

[Xethreau]

My bet is that Thievery includes uses of Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, Use Rope, Escape Artist. And if that is the case, then I have no problem with the rogues having fewer skills, since they get this one for free.

I am so glad that proficencies are handled by the manner of the weapon and not the "category" of it (martial/simple).

And I agree. I can't wait for 4e.

 

[HeinorNY]

Regarding the rapier, all melee powers refer to light blades. Considering rapier is still a light blade, I see no problems here.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'm pretty happy about the lack of bonus skills from INT. Note also that not one of the Rogue's skills is Int based.

And that some of those skills are 'Knowledge' looking skills. Looks like we're going the Feng Shui route where each (or maybe just some) skill has an active and knowledge component.

So Thievery lets you open locks and know a bit about the local scene.

Or, maybe edit that, maybe it's just that knowledge skills like Dungeoneering and Streetwise now have active components. What the heck is Streetwise anyways?

Re: Weapons & Armor

I suspect that you could be right about all classes being proficient in some weapons.

Also:

Each weapon proficiency might include more models of weapons than we might guess. Short sword could cover rapiers and gladiuses, for instance.

And recall the Elf write up. I suspect that a lot of races are getting free proficiencies.

We also aren't seeing the feats that give you more training in skills or proficiencies. SAGA made those pretty attractive and 4E may be going even farther.

 

[Khuxan]

Regarding the rapier, all melee powers refer to light blades. Considering rapier is still a light blade, I see no problems here.

Except the rogue is not proficient with the rapier, it seems.

 

[Atlatl Jones]

My bet is that Thievery includes uses of Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, Use Rope, Escape Artist. And if that is the case, then I have no problem with the rogues having fewer skills, since they get this one for free.

They also get Stealth, which covers hide and move silently. Athletics covers climb, jump, and swim. Perception covers listen, spot, and probably perception. Rogues will have tons of skills, compared to the equivalent 3e character.

I also suspect that gaining training in a new skill will be as simple as taking a feat. That's how it works in SW Saga.

My one concern is about Intelligence being useful for non-wizards and non-warlords. But we still haven't seen most of the game, so there could be something brand new that we're missing. Or it could even be something as simple as characters getting their int bonus in new trained skills chosen from all their skills, not just their class list.

I am so glad that proficencies are handled by the manner of the weapon and not the "category" of it (martial/simple).

We don't know that, technically. After all, in 3e rogues also got a laundry list of weapons, rather than 'simple/martial' weapon proficiency. I bet you're right though, since the 4e designers seem to want to differentiate the classes based on their fighting styles.

 

[Mouseferatu]

My one concern is about Intelligence being useful for non-wizards and non-warlords.

Out of curiosity, why? Nobody worries about Strength being useful for non melee-types, or about Charisma being useful for people who aren't either Cha-based casters or "face" characters? So why does it matter if Int is important for everyone?

(Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not confirming or denying whether Int is or is not useful across the board in 4E. I'm simply asking for clarification on the objection.)

 

[Atlatl Jones]

Or, maybe edit that, maybe it's just that knowledge skills like Dungeoneering and Streetwise now have active components. What the heck is Streetwise anyways?

That would be my guess. Streetwise is probably a combination of 3e's Knowledge (local), Gather Information, diplomacy checks for getting along in the criminal underworld, knowledges of fences and gangs, and maybe even a measure of the connections the character has, or the ability to make new connections. I'm really curious about what Dungeoneering and Insight cover.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Apart from Mouseferatu, who can neither confirm nor deny....
*Any idea the differnce between these 2:
Insight (Wis) & Perception (Wis)?

 

[Atlatl Jones]

Out of curiosity, why? Nobody worries about Strength being useful for non melee-types, or about Charisma being useful for people who aren't either Cha-based casters or "face" characters? So why does it matter if Int is important for everyone?

In general, it's because I want each stat to be useful to all characters, even if it it's more useful for some classes than others. In specific, I want Int to be useful for rogues because I like playing intelligent, cunning rogues, and want to gain a real benefit for taking a high Int.

(Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not confirming or denying whether Int is or is not useful across the board in 4E. I'm simply asking for clarification on the objection.)