& Sneak Attack: Skills and Proficiencies

[The Shadow]

Apart from Mouseferatu, who can neither confirm nor deny....
*Any idea the differnce between these 2:
Insight (Wis) & Perception (Wis)?

Perception almost certainly includes Spot and Listen.

Insight probably includes Sense Motive. Not sure what else - maybe things like Appraisal?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I am thinking Perception would be more like you can see more clearly that this rock has been moved, or that there is a trap there, or you heard something, etc.

Insight would be more along the lines of you can tell a person is acting oddly or you can see that the monsters are going to attack your fighter your left, etc.

So one is how well you can determine the world around you the other how well you can determine the actions of others.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

In general, it's because I want each stat to be useful to all characters, even if it it's more useful for some classes than others. In specific, I want Int to be useful for rogues because I like playing intelligent, cunning rogues, and want to gain a real benefit for taking a high Int.

Technically, a high dex, high cha, high wis, and low int rogue would still be freaking brilliant.

He'd just have a terrible memory, and maybe be not so good at Math and Languages.

 

[Khuxan]

Out of curiosity, why? Nobody worries about Strength being useful for non melee-types, or about Charisma being useful for people who aren't either Cha-based casters or "face" characters? So why does it matter if Int is important for everyone?

(Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not confirming or denying whether Int is or is not useful across the board in 4E. I'm simply asking for clarification on the objection.)

I for one would prefer all ability scores to be useful for all characters. The cunning, clever rogue is a fairly common archetype.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Out of curiosity, why? Nobody worries about Strength being useful for non melee-types, or about Charisma being useful for people who aren't either Cha-based casters or "face" characters? So why does it matter if Int is important for everyone?

(Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not confirming or denying whether Int is or is not useful across the board in 4E. I'm simply asking for clarification on the objection.)

I am not the original poster but I kinda like the idea of all stats being useful to all characters some extent. Those that choose to dump a stat to a real low score should have some negative result to this. What I mean is a 3E half-orc ftr, using a point buy system he might as well put 8 in both INT and CHA cos: 1. his skill points stay at 1/lvl and 2. his social interactions are going to be rubbish (unless he follows DMG advice and uses a display of STR to intimidate). If every stat effects all characters to some real extent it would stop this sort of thing. Does that make sense? I know there is nothing wrong with having a poor stat (esp for Role Play reasons) but there is too much min maxing about when it comes to some stats for most classes.

 

[mach1.9pants]

maybe you do get more trained skills for high INT, but they can be any (not class restricted) skills and are thus not listed under class descriptions?

 

[Voss]

To me, the big thing is most rogue characters in literature and myth were intelligent, sometimes unreasonably so- problem solvers, working out mechanisms, etc. I dislike the flavor of unintelligent and not particularly cunning rogues. And unfortunately, since it doesn't seem (given the info we have) to benefit them at all. No powers, no skills, not even defenses or hit points or anything, there isn't any reason not to make it a dump stat. If you do, you're shorting yourself on the stats that matter to your character, and thats never a decision I like.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hmm... I wonder what if Intelligence was used as a additional modifier, so be like...

Ability Modifier + Class Level + Skill Points + Intelligence Modifier.

This could go with the idea that with more intelligence you more easily learn how to do something, but you would still require the basic ability to perform it well. So like the ability is how you use it the intelligence is how you refine and perfect it.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Just looking at the 2 'builds'- basically a Dex+Str based on and a Dex+Cha based one, it would be easy to create a Dex+Int based one. I doubt it would be long before either WotC or another publisher puts one of them out.
My rogues always have Int as their first skill, not Dex. I hope this can be recreated in 4E- the smart, clever and tricky rather than charming or thuggish rogue...

 

[Zamkaizer]

To me, the big thing is most rogue characters in literature and myth were intelligent, sometimes unreasonably so- problem solvers, working out mechanisms, etc. I dislike the flavor of unintelligent and not particularly cunning rogues. And unfortunately, since it doesn't seem (given the info we have) to benefit them at all. No powers, no skills, not even defenses or hit points or anything, there isn't any reason not to make it a dump stat. If you do, you're shorting yourself on the stats that matter to your character, and thats never a decision I like.

Nearly all literary scoundrels are exceedingly clever. It is, after all, one of, nay, the character's defining trait. The thing is that the rogue class also encompasses the brute and thief archetypes. As many literary brutes are brilliant as scoundrels are simple.

Why do you hate verisimilitude Voss?

Why?

EDIT: Ok, now that I realize what Voss was actually addressing, I would argue that a literary scoundrel's perceived cleverness arose as much from their skill at making themselves appear savvy as the actual soundness of their ideas.