Sneak Attacks in the Rogue Class, WHY?

[Ciaran]

No, it isn't - you've got your head stuck up your own conceptual bias. If you don't like the "mystical ninja" interpretation of the assassin class, that's a problem - but it's your problem. Don't try to tell us that it's "silly" - in most cases, the perception of "silly" is the product of conceptual tunnel vision.

I think you're overreacting, SirBob. True, he could have phrased his opinion in a far less confrontational way. But he does have a valid vision for how a campaign setting might be designed, and in regard to that vision, it's reasonable for him to deny spells to the semi-spell users like the Bard.

On the other hand, if he goes so far as to say you're stupid for liking high-magic settings, then he can go bite himself.

- Eric

 

[Hejdun]

We kind of banned the Bard class because they have spells

Wow! No wonder the Rogue is so much better than a Wizard, wizards don't have spells!

 

[Corinth]

I still fail to see the point here.

 

[rounser]

What makes d&d great is not that its full of Magic items and Equipment, nor that that you can be a high level magician. What makes d&d great is its simplicity. Its a good system because its fast and one can focus on roleplaying, theatrical dialogue and atmosphere instead of rules.

I disagree. Magic items do make D&D great, among other things. Simply because you draw upon magic item resources to a lesser extent than others doesn't change this - you still have the choice, and can pick and choose from this massive resource, and that's what matters.

Take away D&D's monsters, spells, magic items, class archetypes and, IMO, you no longer have D&D because you've thrown most of the intellectual property of the game in the trash. You can create a low-magic world with no spells and no magic items, but you'd probably still use the monsters. If you don't use those either, you're probably still drawing upon the class archetypes. If you don't use the class archetypes either, consider using a different system!

You're right that one of D&D's strengths has always been having a ruleset simplistic enough to not get in the way of building and playing in your own pulp fantasy world, but implying that the simplicity of the rules are the primary reason why it's prospered is, IMO, oversimplifying and ignoring it's primary fortes as a "pulp fantasy construction kit".

 

[PenguinKing]

But he does have a valid vision for how a campaign setting might be designed, and in regard to that vision, it's reasonable for him to deny spells to the semi-spell users like the Bard.

I was responding only to his sweeping proclaimation that spellcasting assassins are "silly" - note how I quoted? Not "inappropriate for a given campaign style", but "silly".

- Sir Bob.

P.S. Nih!

 

[omedon]

What I don't understand is why Fighters can't learn Sneak Attack.

Isn't Sneak Attack just a style of fighting?

If not, what is it, then? And if it is, why can't the guy who specializes in Fighting take it? If it's because Fighters don't know how to make precise strikes, why are they the ones with the good BAB? If it's because they aren't "sneaky" enough, why not tie Sneak Attack to Hide and Move Silently? or some other skill?

To me, it seems like a compromise, trading realism for game balance, that could have been solved by giving Rogues Feats to pick and choose from. Or free access to Sneak Attack at a faster rate.

Oh well.

Couldn't you just make Sneak Attack a Feat? Every time the Fighter takes the feat he could get +1d6 Sneak attack damage. This should balance out nicely because the Fighter is giving up his primary class benefit (bonus feats) in exchange for the Sneak Attack.

Perhaps this isn't terribly precise and may require some tweaking but I believe it would be at least somewhat balanced. Though if you have a thief in the party already it might steal some of his thunder by taking away some of his uniqeness.

Maybe you could make a dirty fighter Prestige Class that has sneak attack as a class ability. A requirement could be a Reflex Save of 2 or 3 so the Fighter couldn't take it right away so he would never be as good at sneak attacking as the rogue.

 

[Ma'varkith]

Couldn't you just make Sneak Attack a Feat? Every time the Fighter takes the feat he gets +1d6 Sneak attack damage.

*AHEM*

Go back about a dozen posts

Skimmer.

 

[omedon]

*AHEM*

Go back about a dozen posts

Skimmer.

Nope not a skimmer. I just stopped reading the thread at the post I was replying to. Now that I have made the post I will pick up reading where I left off.

Reading your post now my only conclusion is that great minds think alike.

 

[Epametheus]

Err.. I think a fighter who wants sneak attack should pay for it with the necessary levels in a class.

And he shouldn't be whining about the rogue levels, anyways; getting Evasion and Uncanny Dodge (protection from other sneak attackers!) along with +2d6 or so additional damage dice whenver you win initiative, flank someone, or (worst of all) have Improved Invisibility cast on you, is good.

As a side note, the assassin spell list is actually VERY specialized. Everything there (all 17 spells of it) is about escape, concealment, and making it easier to kill people. The Improved Invisibility spell, combined with Nondetection, is just evil.

I'm a bit dubious as to how balanced a fighter who can buy sneak attack dice with feats would be.. a human fighter that went nuts about it could pull off having +5d6 damage and Spring Attack by about 6th level. A fairly limited sort.. But unless he's an idiot and isn't paying attention to what the other PCs are, there's someone else he can coordinate flanking with, and Spring Attack will get him into position for it. Assuming a 16 STR and a +1 greatsword, monsters getting flanked and smacked around for say 7d6+5 twice or thrice a round (Haste) at 6th level isn't good.

And for the sake of throwing it up here, the Wheel of Time Noble.

The every-other-level ability (starting at 1st) of the Noble is "Call in a favor." They get a total of 10 during the course of their career, can "store" up to five at a time, and are used by making a special check (noble level + cha mod vs. a DC arbitrarily set by the DM). Favors aren't recoverable when used, but are not considered to be used up when they fail. You cannot use two favors for the same thing.

Example favors include trying to get valuable info, or trying to acquire resources without needing to pay for them. There aren't any real guidlines for them.

Inspire Confidence: +1 at 2nd level, up another plus every four levels after (caps at +5 at L18). Full-round action involving a speech, and requires a diplomacy check DC 10 + (number of people to be inspired, including noble, divided by 5). If it succeeds, the inspired gain +(#) as a competance bonus to attack rolls, skill checks, and Will saves. Duration = 10 minutes * # rounds spent on it -- max of 5 hours after 30 rounds. It can be used once a day.

Command: +2 at 4th level, +2 every fourth level past that (caps at +10 at 20th level). By passing a Charisma check = DC 15 + # of people directed, he gives that bonus in addition to the normal +2 for an Aid Another action relating to skill checks. Duration = task length, minimum of a full round. Can be used an unlimited number of times per day.

Other relevant Noble stuff: use of all simple and martial weapons, shields, and light armor. Skills = Bard list minus.. (*looks at Bard Skill List* Well, listing what skills they don't have compared to Bards would take more time and space than listing what they do have..).. Err... Anyways, Skills = Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Innuendo, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Perform, Ride, Sense Motive, and Speak/write Language. Points is 4 + int mod. Hit die is the d8, medium base attack bonus, moderate Reflex save (change to good if you don't feel like screwing with that..) and good will save. Lastly, at 1st, they get to pick one cross-class skill as a class skill.

Very, VERY low powered compared to 3e PC classes..

 

[mmadsen]

Why do all Rogues have sneak attacks, are all rogues assassins or what? Its pretty wierd considering there is an Assassin prestige class. I thought Rogues was diplomats and general Big City people, merchants etc. Now if one of my players wants to make a Diplomat, what am I to tell this guy, You get Sneak attack feat and Uncanny Dodge etc... Sounds VERY wierd for someone that buries himself in books. Are there any rule for substituting "class abilities" for feats??

As you've discovered, many of the core classes aren't very flexible. The Fighter is, and the NPC Expert is, but the rest aren't. Unless your character conception is "agile backstabbing lockpicker", the Rogue class won't fit.

I like turning all the class Special Abilities into Feats and giving each class a Bonus Feat list (a la the Fighter) and a customizable Skill list for multiple "subclasses". That way a nonviolent catburglar can skip Sneak Attack, a commando/ranger can take Sneak Attack, a nonspellcasting bard can be a Rogue with bard skills, etc.