eriktheguy
First Post
This sucks for those eladrins that wan't to use longswords for sneak attack. Go from a d6 to a d8? You're losing one die of sneak damage. Go from daggers to spells? No penalty and keep your +1 rogue weapon trick.
Sneak attacks with spells
- Thread starter Kaledor
- Start date
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Longsword Finesse will help you as an Eladrin rogue wanting to use a longsword and you could use AIP or Eladrin Sword Wizardry to wield it as an implement too. Probably not an optimum build but it works. Sorcerer/Rogue is only going to get very limited SA anyway. Whatever way you cut it dagger is just a vastly superior weapon for rogues. I could see a rapier wielding swordmage/rogue though applying SA to swordmage powers now and then. Probably works reasonably well as a hybrid too. Use Aegis to get insta-CA and hit them with SA.
RyvenCedrylle
First Post
I have a player who has been doing this exact trick since level 2 - Sorcerous Blade Channeling and Distant Advantage. At only once per encounter, I have no problem with it.
Artoomis
First Post
Fior Hybrid, absolutely not.
SNEAK ATTACK (HYBRID)
This class feature functions as the rogue class feature, except that you can deal the extra damage only when you hit with a rogue power or a rogue paragon path power.
For multiclass, it's arguable either way. I tend to think it is allowed as written. After all:
SNEAK ATTACK
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage.
It seems to me that a dagger used by a sorcerer as an implement is still a "light blade." There is no mention of it needing to be used as a "weapon."
SNEAK ATTACK (HYBRID)
This class feature functions as the rogue class feature, except that you can deal the extra damage only when you hit with a rogue power or a rogue paragon path power.
For multiclass, it's arguable either way. I tend to think it is allowed as written. After all:
SNEAK ATTACK
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage.
It seems to me that a dagger used by a sorcerer as an implement is still a "light blade." There is no mention of it needing to be used as a "weapon."
DracoSuave
First Post
Not to mention 'light blade' is also an implement type.
Sometimes I find this game frustrating. Cant we just apply an element of common sense here? Regardless of how you legally interpret this, isn't anyone capable of just applying a bit of decision making.
To me a rogues sneak damage is simply his ability to put that (dagger) in a vital spot to do great damage to that target. When using this long range to focus spells through, the weapon never makes contact with the target, so no, I wouldnt pay this.
A previous post stated that this should have been restricted to powers with the "weapon" keyword, and that (to me) sounds about right.
Yes, you could probably argue me into the ground (go ahead, really, tear me to shreds...I know what the rules say, and by RAW I am wrong) but really, your Dm's guys, executive decisions is part and parcel of it. Regardless of how the rules lie currently, I just cannot imagine (on any level or in any capacity) that this was the designers intent. This is just one of those things that has arisen through rule evolution and hasn't yet made the errata.
To me a rogues sneak damage is simply his ability to put that (dagger) in a vital spot to do great damage to that target. When using this long range to focus spells through, the weapon never makes contact with the target, so no, I wouldnt pay this.
A previous post stated that this should have been restricted to powers with the "weapon" keyword, and that (to me) sounds about right.
Yes, you could probably argue me into the ground (go ahead, really, tear me to shreds...I know what the rules say, and by RAW I am wrong) but really, your Dm's guys, executive decisions is part and parcel of it. Regardless of how the rules lie currently, I just cannot imagine (on any level or in any capacity) that this was the designers intent. This is just one of those things that has arisen through rule evolution and hasn't yet made the errata.
Artoomis
First Post
But... they can also use crossbows, so close-up physical contact is not the key. If one can aim a crossbow and get extra damage, why not a spell?
4e, even more than previous sytems, sometimes tosses out simple logic in favor of consistent, predictable game mechanics. Not to mention the fact that what is "logical" to one person is not to another and vice-versa.
Further, why can a multi-class rogue use sneak attack with other than rogue powers while a hybrid rogue cannot. That's a pretty clear example of why you cannot just blindy use what you think is "logic" and expect that to work properly in 4e.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
In older versions you better sneak attacked with a ballista than with a dagger...
As a multiclassed rogue you can pull up the trick only once in an encounter and you don´t have rogue powers in general... so...
As a multiclassed rogue you can pull up the trick only once in an encounter and you don´t have rogue powers in general... so...
Touche.
But does this mean a Sorceror/Ranger (bad combo I know, but follow the logic) can apply quarry on a spell and Sorceror damage bonus? Well no we cant (because IMO designer intent is clearly spelled out) in that the hybrid ranger quarry and the sorceror damage only applies to respective class powers and paragon path powers. What about Ranger/Avenger? Can they use both quarry and Oath of emnity? Again, no. Both have literaly stated that the respective striker features can only apply to the respective classes powers.
So why is rogue different? Why did it leave this distinction out? Because combat advantage is situational? So is quarry (to a lesser degree admittedly) but that is factored in the lower damage and different mechanic. I dont feel that situationality factors in to this.
The fact that a rogue can stack with sorceror could easily be construed to be a loophole or an oversight. Yes, synergy is possible (and should be, its interesting), but this one just sounds like it works because the hole has not been plugged, and I in know way believe that designers intended double striker stacking in hybrids, no matter what the combo.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
As a hybrid you can only sneak attack with rogue and hunters quarry with ranger powers powers... no oversight.
As multiclass rogue or multiclass ranger you can apply striker feature with all powers.
As a sorcerer the bonus is tied to sorcerer or at least arcane powers, but it is always active so it follows a certain logic...
There is a unified logic and when you gain a sorcerer power with versatile master or something as an at will you can sneak attack all day long... (as long as you have combat advantage)
As multiclass rogue or multiclass ranger you can apply striker feature with all powers.
As a sorcerer the bonus is tied to sorcerer or at least arcane powers, but it is always active so it follows a certain logic...
There is a unified logic and when you gain a sorcerer power with versatile master or something as an at will you can sneak attack all day long... (as long as you have combat advantage)
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