Sneaking in the wilderness - who's right?

[Malin Genie]

I've found, particularly in Living Greyhawk, DMs are using Spot / Listen / Hide / Move Silently in a way that makes sneaking and scouting damn near impossible.

In particular, characters attempting to scout ahead are usually asked to make Hide and Move Silently rolls, and if they 'fail' are spotted / heard and an encounter started. At that point the DM will give the character a Spot / Listen 'to see whether you are surprised or not.' The encounter tends to start at a set distance, often within charge range.

Even if a potential opponent would succeed on a Spot vs my Hide roll or their Listen vs my Move Silently roll, shouldn't they only see me at a distance of (10ft x margin of success) given the -1 per 10ft penalty? And therefore, if the margin of my Spot vs their Hide is better than their Spot vs my Hide, shouldn't I see the enemy at a greater distance and have the chance to dictate whether I want to pursue or avoid an encounter? Am I misunderstanding the nature of the skills?

In practice, with large Spot / Listen bonuses and reasonable but not brilliant Hide / Move Silently, I never seem to get the chance to see the enemy first (even, in the last game, for at least two creatures with lower Spot, lower Listen, lower Hide and lower Move Silently bonuses than I have) - my skills only seem to be useful to avoid a surprise round, never to actually avoid encounters or achieve surprise.

-Malin Genie
who has been thinking on the issue a lot since the Paintball game (ouch!)...

 

[Maliki]

I'm not sure what the rules say but your point seems valid to me, as a DM I'd give the creatures either a 5 or 10 plus thier modifiers to hear or see you, unless they were actively listening and watching for someone, then they would get a normal roll The same for you to hear or spot them a 5 or 10 plus thier modifiers on hide and move silently for you to hear or see them. That way since you are the one actively being stealthy its more likely for you gain the advantage.

 

[argo]

The 3.0 DMG had more detailed guidlines about encounter distance than the 3.5 DMG which leaves more details in the hands of the DM. The basic idea is this.

The DM determines the maximum distance at which an encounter could possibly occur. This is based on the terrain, visibility, line of sight, etc. There are some guidlines in both the 3 and 3.5 DMG for rolling for a random distance at which to start the encounter.
-If a character/npc is already attempting to hide (scouting) and assuming that hiding is possible in the first place (cover/concealment) then he makes his hide/move silent rolls.
-If a character/npc is not attempting to hide then the DM determines what the DC will be for spot/listen checks to detect that character. The 3.0 DMG suggests a base DC of 20 plus size modifiers plus a laundry list of other modifiers.
-Both sides make their spot/listen checks with a -1 penalty for each 10ft of distance.
-If you make your spot/listen check you become aware of the other side and may act appropriaetly. If they are very close already this means you start combat with a suprise round. If they are far away then the DM should track the ammount of time that passes in rounds and adjudicate whatever other action happens normally.
-If you fail your spot/listen and the other side is not attempting to hide then you automitaclly become aware of them when you close to within 1/2 the distance at which you first made your awarness rolls (so if the maximum distance to spot them was 120ft and they are not trying to hide then you become aware automatically at 60 ft.). If your opponent is attempting to hide then he should continue to make hide/move silent checks and you should continue to make spot/listen checks as normal. Exactly what is "as normal" is left up to the DM but something reasonable might be every time the opponent moves position he makes a new hide check and you oppose with a new spot roll, plus you get a new spot roll at 1/2 encounter distance and at 10 and 5 feet against whatever the opponet's last hide check was, Plus you can use a move-action to make an "active" spot check but your DM may want to know why you are making spot chekcs if your character doesn't know anything is there. Note: if you fail to spot you not-hiding opponent at max distance and he does spot you his first action may be to hide before you reach 1/2 distance thus meaning you now have to spot against his hide check.
-If visibility is really bad and everybody fails their spot checks then the DM may assign a % roll that everybody simply "passes in the night" rather than becomming aware at 1/2 distance.

So, to state all this another way: determining awareness is a matter of determining: is a character attempting to actively hide or not? If he is use his hide roll and if not set a static spot DC. Is a character attempting to actively spot or not? If he is give him a spot check every time he asks for it and if not give him one at max-distance. If a character is unaware of his opponent and his opponent is not hidding he "bumps into" the opponent at 1/2 distance. If the opponent is hidding he becomes aware of the opponent when he makes a successful spot check or when the opponent reveals himself (perhaps by attacking) so it is possible to walk right past a hidding opponent and not know it.

Without knowing anything more about your situation it sounds to me as though the biggest problem you have is that your DM is assigning max-distance as something like 30 or 60 feet. In the wilderness max-distance ought to be more like 100 or so feet (it depends on the situation). At that range the -1 per 10 feet penalty should make you really tough to spot and even if you are seen hopefully you saw the opponent as well and have a head start on running back to your party. A scout should be dividing his rounds between making hide checks (as part of move actions) and making active spot/listen chekcs (as move actions) so even if you miss seeing your opponent at max-distance hopefully you will get one or two more chances thanks to taking it slow and keeping your eyes peeled. Again this is to give you the chance at a head-start if nothing else.

Hope that helps.

 

[Malin Genie]

That pretty much fits with what I remembered - but I don't seem to be getting the chance to Spot / Listen for *them* at maximum encounter distance, nor do they seem to be getting range penalties (even at 100ft, I should have a decent chance to spot/hear a *non*-hiding opponent (Spot and Listen +12 or so) and they should have little chance to detect me with the -10 penalty (Hide and Move Silently +5))

Maybe it's less of a DM call thing as a boxed text "The characters will be attacked by Monster X when they reach this point. Monster X will appear 50ft from the characters."? Is anyone who has DMed prewritten modules(Living Greyhawk in particular) in a position to comment?