Snipers?
- Thread starter Dwarmaj
- Start date
I believe there is a passage somewhere that says it is nearly impossible (-20) to stay hidden after attacking. But every 10' of distance adds +1 to the spot check to find you.
Solution 1: take the -20 and fire from REALY far away. At 300 feet, they won't spot you anyway.
Solution 2: move. Take one shot and then move to a different location and hide. As long as you can get out of sight you can hide. The penalties from moving are better than the -20.
Solution 1: take the -20 and fire from REALY far away. At 300 feet, they won't spot you anyway.
Solution 2: move. Take one shot and then move to a different location and hide. As long as you can get out of sight you can hide. The penalties from moving are better than the -20.
Celebrim
Legend
I feel I should point out that the rule of a linear +1 DC on listen and spot checks per X feet of distance is completely broken anyway.
By a strict interpretation of those rules, a mountain could not be seen on a clear day, and thunder claps cannot be heard unless they are right next to you. You also have the problem of a sound loud enough to be heard for miles clearly, suddenly becoming almost impossible to hear 200' further away. Similar problems occur with vision. If the DC to 'spot' a mountain is -8000, then you can always see it at 80000' but suddenly it is nearly impossible to see at 80200' feet. That's kinda silly.
D20 works really well for combat in relatively small areas between small forces none of which is significantly above 20th level. Anything else, and you have to start fiddling with it.
I tend to cause the DC to increase in a semi-logrithmic fashion. For instances, if the DC increases by 1 per 10 feet, then I limit it to +10 at 100 feet, then increase the DC by 1 per 100 feet after that until 1000 feet, and then by 1 per 1000 feet after that until 10,000 feet and so forth.
By a strict interpretation of those rules, a mountain could not be seen on a clear day, and thunder claps cannot be heard unless they are right next to you. You also have the problem of a sound loud enough to be heard for miles clearly, suddenly becoming almost impossible to hear 200' further away. Similar problems occur with vision. If the DC to 'spot' a mountain is -8000, then you can always see it at 80000' but suddenly it is nearly impossible to see at 80200' feet. That's kinda silly.
D20 works really well for combat in relatively small areas between small forces none of which is significantly above 20th level. Anything else, and you have to start fiddling with it.
I tend to cause the DC to increase in a semi-logrithmic fashion. For instances, if the DC increases by 1 per 10 feet, then I limit it to +10 at 100 feet, then increase the DC by 1 per 100 feet after that until 1000 feet, and then by 1 per 1000 feet after that until 10,000 feet and so forth.
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It is harder to spot a person at longer distances.
The D&D rules are supposed to be simple, but efficent.
There is a cumulative +1 on spot DCs per 10 feet.
Like many rules in D&D, it doesn't make sense on inspection, and can be abused. In this case, the sniper needs to be close enough to see the target but not be seen himself. That should limit the range to <= 200. I'll agree with Celebrim, on where the rules make the most sense. I don't believe that making the rest of rules make sense is worth the time though. That is what DMs are for.
The D&D rules are supposed to be simple, but efficent.
There is a cumulative +1 on spot DCs per 10 feet.
Like many rules in D&D, it doesn't make sense on inspection, and can be abused. In this case, the sniper needs to be close enough to see the target but not be seen himself. That should limit the range to <= 200. I'll agree with Celebrim, on where the rules make the most sense. I don't believe that making the rest of rules make sense is worth the time though. That is what DMs are for.
Dwarmaj said:
According to Song & Silence, you can hide as a move-equivalent action, after taking a shot, at a -20 penalty.
IMO, the spotting rules are screwy. Take the situation where a sniper gets an attack in the surprise round because (quite reasonably) they get the jump on an unsuspecting target. The surprise round is only a partial action, so they don't get a MEA to hide immediately after. The fact that hiding requires a separate action implies that, if the target wins init, they automatically spot the sniper (since otherwise there would be no need to roll the Spot check). Since there are no distance limits on line-of-sight (as opposed to distance penalties on a Spot check), this holds regardless of how far away the sniper is or how well they're concealed.
Personally, I'd say that spotting the sniper after the shot requires a Spot check, even if it isn't the sniper's turn yet. How exactly this interacts with the MEA to hide is something I haven't worked out yet....
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weirder in DS
This gets harder in Dragonstar with a silenced sniper rifle. Should be quite hard to figure out where the shot came from. And since you can shoot from hiding (ie don't need to show much of yourself) you should still be "hiding" after firing, just at a bit of a minus for the "shot effects".
One thing I do in my campaigns, for arrows or bullets (differnt DC's), is to allow affected targets an INT check to see if they can figure out which direction the shot came from. I also allow any knowledge skill, or other relevant skill, modifiers to this check (for example, I would let a player make a case for adding +1 if they have weapon focus bow just because they are so familiar with using it and are used to "seeing arrows"). This seems more fair, and within the rules mostly to me.
Of course if you are all standing around motionless and an arrows sticks in someone on one side, it would be a pretty easy DC. However, in a more chaotic situation, I don't think this would be so obvious.
This gets harder in Dragonstar with a silenced sniper rifle. Should be quite hard to figure out where the shot came from. And since you can shoot from hiding (ie don't need to show much of yourself) you should still be "hiding" after firing, just at a bit of a minus for the "shot effects".
One thing I do in my campaigns, for arrows or bullets (differnt DC's), is to allow affected targets an INT check to see if they can figure out which direction the shot came from. I also allow any knowledge skill, or other relevant skill, modifiers to this check (for example, I would let a player make a case for adding +1 if they have weapon focus bow just because they are so familiar with using it and are used to "seeing arrows"). This seems more fair, and within the rules mostly to me.
Of course if you are all standing around motionless and an arrows sticks in someone on one side, it would be a pretty easy DC. However, in a more chaotic situation, I don't think this would be so obvious.
green slime
First Post
It isn't too much of a problem:
If the ambushing sniper is within 30 feet,
he gets the drop on the party. Gets of a shot.
Roll initiative. If he is first he gets another shot or more against the flat-footed dimwits.
But what with the twang of the bow, the flight of the arrow, he is pretty much revealed, and taking a MEA to hide in close quarters seems a bit strange... Unless it is dark.
If he is beyond 30 feet, he would be wise to be beyond 120 feet, this making it difficult for the party to move and engage, while he was revealed.
Also it seems strange to MEA to hide in the same place... What have you achieved then? It is the first place someone is going to look? Wouldn't you want to move around and hide somewhere else?
The arrow came from there! Behind that tree! I'm going to check it out!
*Twang*Hide*
Ugh... From behind the tree! I'm at the bloody tree! I can't see anything. But I know the shot came from here.
*Twang*Hide*
No lads! All clear! no one here! Guess I'm deaf and dumb as well as blind!
*Twang*Hide*
Guess you can add Dead to that list...
If the ambushing sniper is within 30 feet,
he gets the drop on the party. Gets of a shot.
Roll initiative. If he is first he gets another shot or more against the flat-footed dimwits.
But what with the twang of the bow, the flight of the arrow, he is pretty much revealed, and taking a MEA to hide in close quarters seems a bit strange... Unless it is dark.
If he is beyond 30 feet, he would be wise to be beyond 120 feet, this making it difficult for the party to move and engage, while he was revealed.
Also it seems strange to MEA to hide in the same place... What have you achieved then? It is the first place someone is going to look? Wouldn't you want to move around and hide somewhere else?
The arrow came from there! Behind that tree! I'm going to check it out!
*Twang*Hide*
Ugh... From behind the tree! I'm at the bloody tree! I can't see anything. But I know the shot came from here.
*Twang*Hide*
No lads! All clear! no one here! Guess I'm deaf and dumb as well as blind!
*Twang*Hide*
Guess you can add Dead to that list...
green slime
First Post
Right, Shooting a long bow, a 6 foot tall weapon, and remain hiding...
Thanks for missing the point...
Thanks for missing the point...
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