Sniping and hide penalties
- Thread starter Jotun
- Start date
Got an idea where this rule is printed? I thought it was Song and Silence of Masters of the Wild. I don't think that it's Mongoose's Quintessential Rogue, but I could be wrong. I *know* that it's not in Player's Handbook.
I think it is -20 as well. It's sorta starting to drive me nuts.
I think it is -20 as well. It's sorta starting to drive me nuts.
It says that a person using the Hide in shadows skill is aloud to move at 1/2 normal rate without gaining any penalties.
I would say that firing a bow or crossbow would require a second hide in shadows check (at no penalty) as well as a listen check from any and all oponents to see if they hear the bow or crossbow being fired. The thief's move silently would have no effect on this check as he has no way to silence the bow/crossbow any more then it already is.
I would say that firing a bow or crossbow would require a second hide in shadows check (at no penalty) as well as a listen check from any and all oponents to see if they hear the bow or crossbow being fired. The thief's move silently would have no effect on this check as he has no way to silence the bow/crossbow any more then it already is.
I appreciate your input mikebr99, but I'm afraid I see the game mechanics a little differently. I'll explain.
Assume the character is hidden. He or she shoots a crossbow from the hiding place. I agree that another hide check is in order at this point. I think there should be a penalty for this and you disagree. I say that the character had to actually ready a weapon, aim, and fire. The character's mostly focused on the attack, not the hiding.
I agree that a listen check is a good idea. If someone else in my group gets hit by a crossbow bolt, I think that I'll know about it. Hearing it being shot isn't of much help. Hearing isn't a very accurate targetting sense. I think looking at the bolt would be more informative about the location of the origin of the attack.
If the sniper had to reload a crossbow and/or was changing locations, I think a Listen vs. MS check would be in order.
Assume the character is hidden. He or she shoots a crossbow from the hiding place. I agree that another hide check is in order at this point. I think there should be a penalty for this and you disagree. I say that the character had to actually ready a weapon, aim, and fire. The character's mostly focused on the attack, not the hiding.
I agree that a listen check is a good idea. If someone else in my group gets hit by a crossbow bolt, I think that I'll know about it. Hearing it being shot isn't of much help. Hearing isn't a very accurate targetting sense. I think looking at the bolt would be more informative about the location of the origin of the attack.
If the sniper had to reload a crossbow and/or was changing locations, I think a Listen vs. MS check would be in order.
Politeness is a virtue... which you have Jotun..
Anyway... what I was trying to get at is that the skill allows you to move at half your normal movement and suffer no penalties.... you acould move at your full rate and only suffer a -5. A 20th level Monk can move 45ft. while hiding and suffer no hide penalties.
I am thinking that -20 is a little harsh for firing a hand crossbow from a hiding spot.
This is going to cause more problems methinks... but trying to fire a weapon while hiding should be based on the weapon or type of action. Trying to fire a hand crossbow once in a round should not accrue any penalties. But maybe a Lt. crossbow would mean a -5, and heavy crossbow -10 etc.
Comments?
Anyway... what I was trying to get at is that the skill allows you to move at half your normal movement and suffer no penalties.... you acould move at your full rate and only suffer a -5. A 20th level Monk can move 45ft. while hiding and suffer no hide penalties.
I am thinking that -20 is a little harsh for firing a hand crossbow from a hiding spot.
This is going to cause more problems methinks... but trying to fire a weapon while hiding should be based on the weapon or type of action. Trying to fire a hand crossbow once in a round should not accrue any penalties. But maybe a Lt. crossbow would mean a -5, and heavy crossbow -10 etc.
Comments?
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
On the basis of the core rules, there is no clearcut answer on whether you can or cannot Hide while sniping. It is all just personal opinion on what works best.
I rather strongly feel that Hide should work more or less like Invisibility with respect to attacks: Attacking automatically reveals the location of the attacker; you may attempt to Hide again, terrain & circumstances allowing.
My reasoning is that Hide is potentially much more powerful than Invisibility for the simple reason that Invisibility is easily defeated by low level magic, while Hide cannot be countered by magic at all. Look very carefully at the spell True Seeing, for example.
Furthermore, Hide can be easily boosted by relatively cheap, and accessible magic items, feat, abilities.
The net result is that an optimized Rogue can easily automatically get a Hide result in the mid 40's at 10th level -- undefeatable by even an optimized Spotter. At really high levels, you can see Hide rolls up in the 60's.
And I haven't even started talking about Shadowdancers.
I rather strongly feel that Hide should work more or less like Invisibility with respect to attacks: Attacking automatically reveals the location of the attacker; you may attempt to Hide again, terrain & circumstances allowing.
My reasoning is that Hide is potentially much more powerful than Invisibility for the simple reason that Invisibility is easily defeated by low level magic, while Hide cannot be countered by magic at all. Look very carefully at the spell True Seeing, for example.
Furthermore, Hide can be easily boosted by relatively cheap, and accessible magic items, feat, abilities.
The net result is that an optimized Rogue can easily automatically get a Hide result in the mid 40's at 10th level -- undefeatable by even an optimized Spotter. At really high levels, you can see Hide rolls up in the 60's.
And I haven't even started talking about Shadowdancers.
mikebr99 said:
The -20 is for ballance reasons and its a good thing too.
We have a Ranger Arcane Archer in our party with Far shot.
He hides in the woods and snips from 500-1000' away and the bad guy gets -50 to -100 on his spot check from the distance. And even if the mob didnt have the penalty Oue Archer has a Hide of 30+ with magic items.
So for ballance they made it so you can only shoot once and then hide at -20.
It still makes for some dead before they get there bad guys.
Heaven forbid if he was a Rogue and with in 30'
Even with the -20 to hide you can have a good chance to hide and then each round they take bokoo damage.
I agree with mikebr99 that it would be more realistic and fair to everyone to have a different penalty dependent on ranged weapons used from a hiding spot. I think mikebr99's assigned numbers might be more realistically accurate, but then there's realism vs. game mechanics.
I don't think that such a ruling would be useful in my game though. We have 6 players and our game can be afflicted with both rules lawyering and rules ignorance. To say the least, when a "sketchy ruling" comes up like this, it tends to bring everything to a grinding halt. In a smaller or more responsible group, I think I would agree with different penalties for different weapons.
Should a PC do this often, I might consider a feat to reduce penalties a worthwhile endeavor. Maybe a streamlined ruling where projectile weapons are -5 for tiny, -10 for small, -15 for medium, -20 for large.
Thank you mikebr99, you have inspired me to look at it in a different light.
Thanks to IceBear, I have found my missing text on p. 37 of S&S.
Thanks to everyone for the excellent help.
I don't think that such a ruling would be useful in my game though. We have 6 players and our game can be afflicted with both rules lawyering and rules ignorance. To say the least, when a "sketchy ruling" comes up like this, it tends to bring everything to a grinding halt. In a smaller or more responsible group, I think I would agree with different penalties for different weapons.
Should a PC do this often, I might consider a feat to reduce penalties a worthwhile endeavor. Maybe a streamlined ruling where projectile weapons are -5 for tiny, -10 for small, -15 for medium, -20 for large.
Thank you mikebr99, you have inspired me to look at it in a different light.
Thanks to IceBear, I have found my missing text on p. 37 of S&S.
Thanks to everyone for the excellent help.
Last edited:
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