D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

My reading of this is the same as @Hriston's - the player is expected to insert him-/herself into the ingame situation, and then engage that situation. So the player does not confront a problem of "how do I roleplay" - because that has already been answered by inserting him-/herself into the situation. But the situation is a problem that has to be solved.

What I would add to Gygax, in explicating my preferred RPGing approach, is that if you want the personality/character of the PC to emerge in play, then the resources available to the player, and the permissible moves for the player, should be designed so as to help bring this about.

One of the clearest and simplest examples I know of this, from 4e: paladins have an at-will ability called Valiant Strike, which grants a bonus to hit equal to the number of adjacent enemies. So when the player of the paladin inserts him-/herself into a fictional situation where enemies are present, s/he has a good reason to want to be in the thick of things (surrounded by enemies, and therefore getting a bonus to hit) rather than skirmishing on the edges. And this, in turn, will make the PC be valiant - because in the thick of things rather than a skulking skirmisher.

There are some hints of this sort of mechanical/resource approach to establishing characterisation in classic D&D: for instance, fighters get an XP bonus from high STR, so the player of a fighter has an incentive to make STR high, and this in turn makes melee an attractive problem-solving option, which in turn makes it more likely than for other PC types that the player of the fighter will find him-/herself engaging in melee rather than being a skulking skirmisher.

But some more contemporary games (including 4e, in the D&D stable of game) take this sort of idea further.

Needless to say, I think that 2nd ed AD&D is the furthest from this sort of approach to the relationship between desire for characterisation and suites of mechanical options that are available to the player who has inserted him-/herself into the ingame situation.

So you take away from this sentence... "And ‘note that problem solving, in this context, has to do with a problem to be solved by the character, not a problem (such as How do I role-play this situation?) to be solved by the player."... that the player makes all decisions using his own knowledge. Which of course completely ignores the part I bolded.

My take way is that when role playing you make decisions based solely on character knowledge and exp and your still considered roleplaying without having to improv act out everything.
 
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So you take away from this sentence... "And ‘note that problem solving, in this context, has to do with a problem to be solved by the character, not a problem (such as How do I role-play this situation?) to be solved by the player."... that the player makes all decisions using his own knowledge. Which of course completely ignores the part I bolded.

My take way is that when role playing you make decisions based solely on character knowledge and exp and your still considered roleplaying without having to improv act out everything.

Some selective reading is going on. Either that or they might feel that some portions override others. That's obviously not the case since Gygax didn't say they override. That means that the portion saying to play the game has to consider that you also have to step into the persona of your PC and play it appropriately, as well as solving problems as the PC, not the player.

You don't get to make the game move to ignore your low int and act as if your PC is smart since that would contradict playing the persona of your PC, but you could make the game move to learn the best spell you can and justify it later since your wizard would likely do that.
 

So you take away from this sentence... "And ‘note that problem solving, in this context, has to do with a problem to be solved by the character, not a problem (such as How do I role-play this situation?) to be solved by the player."... that the player makes all decisions using his own knowledge. Which of course completely ignores the part I bolded.
I'm not ignoring the part that you bolded. The player has inserted him-/herself into the situation of the character - and hence has the problem to solve.

The question of what knowledge the player should use is not addressed at all in Gygax's essay, is it? I know that it was pretty common in the early days of D&D for players to memorise the Monster Manual - that's one of the reason why new monsters (and new trap ideas, and new spells, and new magic items, . . .) are so important to the game, at least in that period. They are a way of surprising players, and presenting them with a problem to solve - rather than expecting players to pretend to be surprised when they actually are not (eg pretending to be surprised by trolls' regeneration, when in fact they're familiar with it), and to pretend to solve a problem to which they already actually know the solution (eg pretending to try to hit upon fire as a solution to the troll problem, when in fact they already know that fire is the key).

This goes to the contrast that Gygax draws between role playing (in effect, acting) and role assumption. Here are what I think are some key passages from the essay in this respect:

A role-playing game should be such that players begin the personification portion as role play, and then as they progress the activity should evolve into something akin to role assumption. This does away with stilted attempts to act the part of some character. In place of this, players should try to become that person they are imagining during the course of the game, and conduct the actions of their characters accordingly. . . .

Combat, survival amidst threatening conditions, or stalking an opponent are typical means of adding excitement and suspense into the whole. These are action oriented portions of the game activity which call for little role playing but a fair amount of role assumption. The magic-user character (and thus, the player of that character) must know his or her spells and how to utilize them efficiently. The explorer must know outdoor craft. Whatever the situation, setting, or character being played, skill not theatrics is what is called for here. . . .

Role-playing games are different from other games in that they allow participants to create a game persona, develop this character, and enhance his or her skills and abilities. While some considerable amount of acting is most beneficial to play, this is by no means the sole objective or purpose. The fun of such gaming includes all the other elements mentioned, plus the interactive relationships which develop between the various characters of the players participating. In the well-balanced game, role playing should quickly become role assumption . . .

Not every game of this sort must be completely balanced with regard to all of these aspects. Such a decision is entirely in the hands of the game master and the players. If a particular group desires to stress acting, or combat, or problem solving, or any other singular feature of the whole, that is strictly up to the individuals concerned. How they enjoy gaming, and what constitutes fun, is theirs alone to decide. . . .

Play of the game is the thing. Play includes development of the character and personification thereof, role assumption and role playing, and the rest.​

There are a few interesting things here. First, he emphasises the breadth of feasible approaches - a greater emphasis on his preferred style (of player skill-based "role assumption") or on his less-preferred style (of player theatrics or "role playing", which would include pretending to be surprised by trolls when one actually knows what their abilitiies are). Although Gygax has strong preferences, he is not stating a purist position about what he thinks is the only way to play D&D.

Second, look at what he says about combat. In combat, theatrics do not loom large. But a skilled player is able to assume the role of the MU, by knowing the spell list and making sensible choices. Likewise, he assumes that a player of a ranger ("explorer") will actually draw upon knowledge of outdoor craft to solve ingame problems (eg thinking of ways to use trees to make rafts, or vines to make ropes, or to signal via fire and smoke, etc). This is his preferred approach. (Though, I stress again as he himself does, not the only viable approach.)

Third, and following on from the second, player skill in role assumption ("skill not theatrics is what is called for here") means that knowing your suite of resources, and understanding how they fit into the fictional position of the character, is key (eg do I need rope? are there vines? am I carrying a knife? am I able to tell strong, healthy vines from rotting ones? etc). If a character has low INT, that will manifest itself in the answers to these questions - it is one of the things the GM has regard to in informing the player of relevant information (and it can do this in multiple ways: knowledge of languages; a roll to decipher blurred handwriting; a roll to recognise a healthy vine; etc). But there is no suggestion that the player is meant to pretend to be stupid. That is the sort of theatrics that Gygax is skeptical of (while recognising that other RPGers might value it more than he does). That is framing the problem as one for the player alone ("How do I roleplay a stupid PC") rather than as one for the character, which the player him-/herself then engages via "role assumption".

When playing in Gygax's preferred style, if it important to the table that 5 INT matter to character decision making beyond the language rules and INT checks, then the GM should be filtering information provided to the different players on the basis of character INT, so that when the player takes on the situation of the PC, the fictional position is true to the PC's INT.

As far as the bigger discussion in this thread is concerned, I think that this essay from Gygax shows that there are conceptions of RPGing that are very different from the one which gives rise to the question "How do I roleplay a 5 INT character" - and I think this is why [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] posted the essay.

I also think it reminds us that there are multiple ways to do RPGing, and it shows us an author with a strong preference nevertheless acknowledging that others will enjoy doing it other ways (and even recommending that modules, tournament sessions etc advise prospective purchasers/participants which playstyle they are suited to). In this respect, I think it fits with [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s position in this thread, that to insist that a character having 5 INT must give rise to a question of "How do I roleplay that" is to take one preferred approach (broadly, the one that Gygax identifies as theatrics/"role playing" in the narrow sense) and dismiss other completely legitimate and viable approaches (such as Gygax's preferred "role assumption" approach).

My take way is that when role playing you make decisions based solely on character knowledge and exp and your still considered roleplaying without having to improv act out everything.
When Gygax talks about "theatrics", I don't think he is just getting at literal improv acting. He is getting at the idea that playing one's PC means self-consciously adopting another persona and posing the question "What would this other person do?".

Hence his call for "role playing" to quickly become "role assumption" - the persona of the PC is developed fairly quickly, and the PC is oriented in some sort of challenging fictional situation, and now the player's job - having put him-/herself imaginatively into that situation - is to solve the challenge using the resources that the game makes available to him/her.

If your PC's INT is 5, that's one resource you don't have. Your PC's 5 INT might also have contributed when you took the early steps of establishing a personality for your character, which helps shape the PC's goals and methods, and hence helps give content to the character's fictional position. But other than these ways, Gygax is not expecting that the 5 INT should be a constant consideration in making action declarations for your PC. Because that would be engaging the situation from the point of view of a player ("How do I, this real person in the real world, roleplay a 5 INT") rather than from the point of view of the character ("How do I, Thrud the Magnificent, solve this problem that confronts me?").

Again, if it's important for the table that Thrud's 5 INT contribute to the way Thrud (and hence Thrud's player) encounters that problem, that falls onto the GM to factor it into the way information is dispensed.

Speaking now for myself rather than as a Gygax interpreter, I think it's enough that Thrud's player doesn't have INT to draw on as a resource, and hence can't declare knowledge check, certain sorts of investigation or perception checks, etc, with much prospect of success. I don't also see the need for the GM to factor into his/her framing of Thrud's situation. But if I wanted the INT 5 to matter in that respect, I would absolutely put it onto the GM, not the player - as I have repeatedly stated upthread.
 

In any case, the entire article is an opinion piece with no more weight than any other opinion on these forums.
I'm pretty sure Gygax's opinion carries more weight than most other posters on this forum. I mean, he is #1 in XP for a reason. :)
 

What are you saying the model is wrong about?
Being a normal distribution. It cannot be a normal distribution. The data lacks the necessary properties to be able to do the math necessary for a normal distribution. You can still do that math, but the result has no definable meaning.

However, the by forcing the math and creating the false normal distribution model, certain things can be done that help evaluate the data using that false model. This takes advantage of some of the analytical things you can do with that model. But, even then, care must be take to remember that the model is false, and so the conclusions cannot be fully trusted, which is why they reconfirm these things through other means.





I wasn't asking about your misspeaking. I was asking about your assertion, which you repeat in the quote below, that ability scores are rational data. Wouldn't there need to be a non-arbitrary zero value for that to be true? In 5e, I'm pretty sure that ability scores don't go to zero, except possibly in the case of an intellect devourer attack and maybe some other corner effects.

3d6 rolls are rational data. Abilities scores are not. Ability scores are ordinal data, and, after 3.x, sometimes interval data.


Good, so you understand how the distribution of IQs is created. I, myself am well aware of this.

Then you shouldn't possibly make the mistake of thinking that a comparison between the distribution of 3d6 rolls and IQ has anything other than arbitrary relationships -- that your comparison is as valid as Maxperson's IQ = INT x 10. They are both arbitrary devices with no foundation.

Right, I'm comparing the assigned rarity of an IQ score with the rarity of the result of a 3d6 roll. I think we're on the same page. Maybe now you can tell me what you think is wrong with this.
Again, because that's as valid as comparing a rainbow-farting unicorn with the result of 3d6. A made up something doesn't gain validity because you can match shapes to something else.

The assigned rarity of an IQ score is arbitrary and without true meaning. The result of a 3d6 roll does* have meaning. Comparing the two is an exercise in mathturbation. It's pleasing, and passes the time, but doesn't do anything.


*This isn't fully correct in the sense that I'm stating, but I don't want to confuse the issue with a discussion about how the 3d6 normal distribution is also bull because that's much more acceptable bull and even more useful. But, in short, a normal distribution is continuous, meaning that it accounts for rolls of 10.2 and 10.19999999999999 and other such things, which are clearly not going to happen in the real world.
 
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I'm pretty sure Gygax's opinion carries more weight than most other posters on this forum. I mean, he is #1 in XP for a reason. :)

Yikes, argumentum ad verecundiam and argumentum ad populum in two sentences! :D

I don't play the game the way EGG did. I have immense respect for EGG, but don't find his statements on how to play D&D to be particularly constraining. Nor do I find that his popularity here, which is an indication of that same respect for the founder of our hobby, really translates into him being an unassailable or even respectable opinion on how to play the game. I believe that EGG would be happy for people to play the game and have fun rather than play it the way he did.
 

Yikes, argumentum ad verecundiam and argumentum ad populum in two sentences! :D

I don't play the game the way EGG did. I have immense respect for EGG, but don't find his statements on how to play D&D to be particularly constraining. Nor do I find that his popularity here, which is an indication of that same respect for the founder of our hobby, really translates into him being an unassailable or even respectable opinion on how to play the game. I believe that EGG would be happy for people to play the game and have fun rather than play it the way he did.
"Carries more weight" and "is more correct" aren't synonymous. I simply mean more people are going to believe Gary Gygax's opinion than a random poster here.
 

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Read what I said again, very carefully, twice.

I'll help you by representing it in a slightly more formal way:

BoldItalic believes ( Ovinomaner believes ( Sherlock Holmes was a genius ) )

That's all I said in the sentence you quoted. It's not an argument, it's just a statement of what I think you think.

Since you have objected so vociferously to my statement, I can only suppose that either you believe it is untrue, or you have not understood it. I'm guessing the latter. Hence this post.

If, however, you are telling me that

Ovinomancer does not believe ( BoldItalic believes ( Ovinomaner believes ( Sherlock Holmes was a genius ) ) )

then we do have a problem.

Would you care to clarify what it is you believe I said?

You're correct, I misread you.

I am to understand, then, that you believe that Sherlock Holmes is not a genius, and does not have above average intelligence, correct? If this is so, I cannot refute this, and admit that you have adequately and logically proven that Sherlock Holmes has a 5 INT, and it is therefore NOT objectively bad to role play Sherlock Holmes with a 5 INT.

For which, sir, I then advance against those same premises, that it is manifest that it would be objectively bad to roleplay as Sherlock Holmes if you have an 18 INT. I look forward to your further gymnastics on the issue.
 



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