5E so a crocodile and a pc fighter go into a grapple ...

Nickolaidas

Explorer
I would like some clarification in this.

Once a crocodile successfully bites a huge or smaller creature, it automatically grapples it, right? So, in the next rounds, as long as the character fails to break the grapple, does the crocodile get free damage bite rolls? Or he attack rolls normally? Can the crocodile pin down the character for advantage in those attack rolls?

I'm guessing in the case of no free damage, the only reason a croc would grapple would be to move the grappled victim to the bottom of the swamp/lake/river and bite/drown him to death (hence his hold breath ability).
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
I would like some clarification in this.

Once a crocodile successfully bites a huge or smaller creature, it automatically grapples it, right? So, in the next rounds, as long as the character fails to break the grapple, does the crocodile get free damage bite rolls? Or he attack rolls normally? Can the crocodile pin down the character for advantage in those attack rolls?

I'm guessing in the case of no free damage, the only reason a croc would grapple would be to move the grappled victim to the bottom of the swamp/lake/river and bite/drown him to death (hence his hold breath ability).
'Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 21 (3d10 + 5) piercing damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 16). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the crocodile can't bite another target.'

The crocodile bites and auto grapples. If you dont escape, it can bite you normally next turn (chomp chomp) but cant bite anyone else. It could then drag you backwards into the water (at half speed), or use the attack action to also knock you prone (so it gets advantage on the rest of its attacks).

Its not a good place to be,
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
So there isn't automatic damage of any kind, correct?
Nope. The croc bites and grapples on its turn. On your turn you can either try and break out as an action (or cast a spell or attack the croc). Then on the crocs next turn it can munch on you again (retaining the grapple regardless of if this bite damages you or not) or release you and bite someone else. It also get a tail slap (although I would rule it cant tail slap the creature it has bitten as thats physically impossible).

It could also just hold the grapple, refrain from biting you again, and instead take the attack action to attempt to knock you prone (while holding its grapple). Twisting its jaws and flipping you onto the ground.

Then it gets to move half speed (likely dragging you into the water, just like IRL).

As an Australian this is pretty much what happens. Victims of croc attacks die from drowning. They drag you into the water then 'death roll' to knock the air out of your lungs and drown you.

Then they stuff you under a log underwater and let you rot for a week or two (their teeth are not good for cutting, so they let you decompose a bit to make your bits easier to tear off).

You really dont want to come toe to toe with a Saltwater crocodile. Those bastards are big. Largest land based apex predators in the world from memory, and a great way to ruin your day.
 

Nickolaidas

Explorer
Wait ... doesn't being restrained gives advantage on the croc's attacks? Also, can't he move his victim against the victim's will without knocking him prone if the victim is grappled? Why knock him prone then?
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
Wait ... doesn't being restrained gives advantage on the croc's attacks? Also, can't he move his victim against the victim's will without knocking him prone if the victim is grappled? Why knock him prone then?
The creature is grappled, not restrained. Being grappled doesnt grant advantage or disadvantage:

Grappled
• A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.
• The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition).
• The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.

You are prohibited from movement when grappled. Thats it.

If the crocodile knocks the grappled creature prone (using the attack action to make a trip attack), the creature becomes grappled and prone:

Prone
• A prone creature’s only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
• The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.
• An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.

If a creature is both grappled and prone, it cant move (its speed is 0), it cant stand up (again, speed zero), attack rolls against it (such as from the Croc) gain advantage, and its attacks have disadvantage. If it breaks the grapple as an action, it also remains prone (and either needs to crawl away from the croc at half speed or stand up wasting half its movement).
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
But the croc's bite description says that the victim once grappled is restrained.
So it does.

Knocking prone would allow the croc to suffocate (not just drown) the fighter in the shallow waters. Most fighters won't last more than 3 rounds (if that) before they succumb to such a death roll.
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
But the croc's bite description says that the victim once grappled is restrained.
So it does! Even better than grappled.

Restrained:

The creature's speed becomes 0, and it cannot benefit from bonuses to its speed.
Attacks against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attacks have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.

So no need to knock you prone. It bites you and this happens. It gets advantage on its attacks against you from that point, and you have disadvantage with your attacks and Dex saves.
 

Nickolaidas

Explorer
So it does! Even better than grappled.

Restrained:

The creature's speed becomes 0, and it cannot benefit from bonuses to its speed.
Attacks against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attacks have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.

So no need to knock you prone. It bites you and this happens. It gets advantage on its attacks against you from that point, and you have disadvantage with your attacks and Dex saves.
Right! :D

Last questions ... when the restrained status says 'you don't benefit from bonuses to speed' does this mean 'bye bye dex bonus'?

Also, if the croc's victim was grappled and not restrained, couldn't the croc still be able to move him against his will?
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
Right! :D

Last questions ... when the restrained status says 'you don't benefit from bonuses to speed' does this mean 'bye bye dex bonus'?

Also, if the croc's victim was grappled and not restrained, couldn't the croc still be able to move him against his will?
The restrained creature retains its dex bonus to AC (although creatures get advantage to hit it). 'Speed' in 5e means 'movement rate in feet per round'.

And yes. The restrained creature is also grappled so if the croc moves, the creature moves with it (at half speed).

If you had a friendly warlock nearby he could shoot you out of the crocs mouth with a repelling blast :)
 

spectacle

Visitor
If you had a friendly warlock nearby he could shoot you out of the crocs mouth with a repelling blast :)
Or the fighter could kick the croc away himself. Being Grappled or Restrained doesn't impose any penalty on ability checks, so the fighter can use an attack to Shove the crocodile, moving it out of reach and breaking the grapple. Since fighters usually have athletics proficiency and crocodiles don't, his odds are pretty good, and if he has extra attack he gets to try twice.
 
Or the fighter could kick the croc away himself. Being Grappled or Restrained doesn't impose any penalty on ability checks, so the fighter can use an attack to Shove the crocodile, moving it out of reach and breaking the grapple. Since fighters usually have athletics proficiency and crocodiles don't, his odds are pretty good, and if he has extra attack he gets to try twice.
I don't think this is correct. The Grappled condition is ended if something moves the grappled creature out of reach of the one doing the grappling, but it doesn't say anything about the other way around.

Which makes sense - if the fighter is held in the crocodile's jaws and something caused the croc to move, you would indeed expect the fighter to be moved right along with it. If the fighter wants to break the grapple, then there's a mechanism for that.
 

Nickolaidas

Explorer
I think the shove is valid. Since the shove replaces an attack action and the grapple escape is *not* an attack action, the restrained grappler has two choices:

Choice A) Use ONE ability roll to escape the grapple as his action or
Choice B) Use MULTIPLE attack rolls *with disadvantage because of the restrained status* in order to 'escape' from the grapple.

Both choices have their up and downs: A single roll vs multiple rolls with disadvantage.
 
Thing is, while grappled you can choose not to break free but to attack (in a normal humanoid-on-humanoid encounter, a dagger to the guts of your opponent as they grapple you and move you to the cliff edge).

But you couldn't realistically use your longsword terribly effectively in this scenario, so your attack options are limited. Also, despite that knife in the guts, your opponent is still grappling you. You're banking on killing him before he drops you to your doom.

A shove is an alternative to a normal, damage-inducing attack. It presupposes two combatants squaring off against one another, where A chooses to shove B further away from him. It implies distance (melee range) which is widened. Neither A not B is grappled.

If A is grappled, a shove won't break a grapple. It will push B a certain distance away, but B, having not relinquished his grip, will just take A with him. Useful to stave off that cliff drop, sure, but not breaking the grapple.

Now, if the fighter breaks the grapple (twist that hand, sink that elbow in), then action surges to shove, sure. But a shove on its own wouldn't break the grapple.

Especially if you're not fighting mano a mano, but instead a croc has your leg. How would a shove even work? Meanwhile the croc could be ripping at your leg like a dog with a toy, knocking you onto your back and dragging your supine ass backwards into the water where it will then hold you under by its own weight, lying on top of you until you drown. In the dragging to the water part, you have nothing to shove at, the best you could do is kick it with your free leg to either damage it (normal attack) or dislodge its jaws (attempt to break grapple).

edit: video here showing how you end up prone (arm not leg to be fair), but a shove ain't gonna cut it either way http://youtu.be/6ZhHHVsAnI4
 
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A shove is an alternative to a normal, damage-inducing attack. It presupposes two combatants squaring off against one another, where A chooses to shove B further away from him. It implies distance (melee range) which is widened. Neither A not B is grappled.

If A is grappled, a shove won't break a grapple. It will push B a certain distance away, but B, having not relinquished his grip, will just take A with him. Useful to stave off that cliff drop, sure, but not breaking the grapple.
Yep, that would be my take also.
 

TheCosmicKid

Adventurer
Last questions ... when the restrained status says 'you don't benefit from bonuses to speed' does this mean 'bye bye dex bonus'?
Just as a general note, you don't ever lose your Dex bonus in 5E*. For sake of ease of play, the rules avoid altering your stats in combat as much as possible. Advantageous and disadvantageous situations are instead handled through, well, advantage and disadvantage.

*Unless there's some obscure monster or magic item that does it for some reason. I'm not aware of any.
 

Nickolaidas

Explorer
Especially if you're not fighting mano a mano, but instead a croc has your leg. How would a shove even work? Meanwhile the croc could be ripping at your leg like a dog with a toy, knocking you onto your back and dragging your supine ass backwards into the water where it will then hold you under by its own weight, lying on top of you until you drown. In the dragging to the water part, you have nothing to shove at, the best you could do is kick it with your free leg to either damage it (normal attack) or dislodge its jaws (attempt to break grapple).
I basically imagined the 'shove' action being a kick to the crocodile's leg which would cause the animal to open its jaws and -- ah, forget it, you're right. It makes little sense in realism. What you say makes sense - if I'm grabbing on to you, shoving me will just move you with me (unless your strength surpasses mine and your shove basically breaks my grip - imagine a small child holding on to a boxer and the boxer shoving it away. I don't think the boxer would be thrown HIMSELF along with the child)

But some clarification on WotC's end wouldn't hurt in this case. I'd really love to hear their two cents - pity their FAQ rules forum got shut down.

Anyhoo, if I understood you correctly, did you imply that a PC shouldn't be able to use a medium-sized weapon for an attack when grappled? And only be able to use daggers?
 

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