So how does cause fear work

tafkamhokie

First Post
This goes back to the DDXP characters, but even the sneak peek at the official rules has not really cleared it up for me.

The cause fear power (1st level Cleric Attack) causes the target to move its speed + your Cha modifier away from you. It avoids difficult terrain and hazards and movement does provoke AoO.

My question is whether this movement is immediate and does not count against the target's actions, or is this what they do on their turn?

I am assuming the movement is immediate. But honestly, that seems a bit weak to me for an encounter power since the target can just use their next move action to return almost to where they were (and they could probably charge to where they were if they wanted to). But if it happens on their turn and takes up their move action, that almost seems too powerful.

How have you played it?
 

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Saishu_Heiki

First Post
Forced movement does not count against a character's movement allowance, such as pushing or pulling. Cause Fear seems to work the same way.

I would say that it is immediate movement, but does not count against the character's movement for their turn.
 

Heselbine

Explorer
tafkamhokie said:
This goes back to the DDXP characters, but even the sneak peek at the official rules has not really cleared it up for me.

The cause fear power (1st level Cleric Attack) causes the target to move its speed + your Cha modifier away from you. It avoids difficult terrain and hazards and movement does provoke AoO.

My question is whether this movement is immediate and does not count against the target's actions, or is this what they do on their turn?

I am assuming the movement is immediate. But honestly, that seems a bit weak to me for an encounter power since the target can just use their next move action to return almost to where they were (and they could probably charge to where they were if they wanted to). But if it happens on their turn and takes up their move action, that almost seems too powerful.

How have you played it?
Yes, we had this come up in play. Cause Fear didn't really seem to do very much because the target just moved back. I feel I am missing something.
 

Saishu_Heiki

First Post
Since it moves its speed plus your CHA modifier away from you, it has two options to move back up to you:

1. Move its speed. This means that the creature will not reach you that turn, giving you time to blast it or move away yourself.

2. Run to you. This only works if you don't have a CHA modifier of +3 or better. However, even if you modifier is +2 and the creature can reach you it is granting CA to everyone for running.

Either way, the balance has shifted in your favor.
 


Heselbine

Explorer
Saishu_Heiki said:
Since it moves its speed plus your CHA modifier away from you, it has two options to move back up to you:

1. Move its speed. This means that the creature will not reach you that turn, giving you time to blast it or move away yourself.

2. Run to you. This only works if you don't have a CHA modifier of +3 or better. However, even if you modifier is +2 and the creature can reach you it is granting CA to everyone for running.

Either way, the balance has shifted in your favor.
Yes - this seems right, but somehow it didn't seem to work like this in play. I'm forgetting the details. I won't lose any sleep over it frankly.

I'm playing two sessions of 4e tomorrow at UK Games Expo! Yippee!
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Saishu_Heiki said:
Since it moves its speed plus your CHA modifier away from you, it has two options to move back up to you:

1. Move its speed. This means that the creature will not reach you that turn, giving you time to blast it or move away yourself.

2. Run to you. This only works if you don't have a CHA modifier of +3 or better. However, even if you modifier is +2 and the creature can reach you it is granting CA to everyone for running.

Either way, the balance has shifted in your favor.

Don't forget the third option - take a move and a charge, so it is right back in your face, and the only thing it loses out on is that it can only make a basic attack.

FWIW it seems rather too weak to me, and it either should be 'save ends' or the movement isn't forced movement
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Saishu_Heiki said:
Forced movement does not count against a character's movement allowance, such as pushing or pulling. Cause Fear seems to work the same way.

As I've thought more about it, I think that this might be a key point, but not in the way that you do.

We know that forced movement includes push, pull and slide.

We know that forced movement doesn't provoke OA

This fear attack
a) isn't a push, pull or slide
b) expressly does provoke OA

Thus it seems to me that the most likely result of the fear spell is that on their next go the target will use a move action to move away. This would make it more than just a "don't make a non-basic attack on me next turn".

Of course, it may be that the big intention behind fear effects like this is to get people to provoke OA from the big guys.
 

Saishu_Heiki

First Post
Good points.

I would prefer to see Cause Fear be a bit more powerful. If it did cause the creature to spend its next move action to fulfill the Cause Fear movement it would be an improvement. 'Save ends' seems a bit too much at first blush, however.

If it would work to hedge the creature out and keep him from moving towards the caster until a successful save I think that would be the best solution for me.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Fear isn't a magical force pushing Fred away from you. It's a magical force that makes Fred want to run away.

There is no reason to suppose that running away can be done out of Fred's turn. It's normal movement that happens to be governed by a manipulated mind, so he'll have to wait until his turn to move, just like everyone else.
 

Heselbine

Explorer
hong said:
Fear isn't a magical force pushing Fred away from you. It's a magical force that makes Fred want to run away.

There is no reason to suppose that running away can be done out of Fred's turn. It's normal movement that happens to be governed by a manipulated mind, so he'll have to wait until his turn to move, just like everyone else.
That certainly works for me. Much better than how I ran it, which was as forced movement.
 

DevoutlyApathetic

First Post
hong said:
Fear isn't a magical force pushing Fred away from you. It's a magical force that makes Fred want to run away.

There is no reason to suppose that running away can be done out of Fred's turn. It's normal movement that happens to be governed by a manipulated mind, so he'll have to wait until his turn to move, just like everyone else.
I understand your point but applying real world logic to the game can lead to weird results. Like making it impossible for a thrown dagger weighing two pounds to force a 3 ton creature to fly 20 feet.

I think the telling issue is that the movement in Cause Fear isn't a push, pull, or slide.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
DevoutlyApathetic said:
I understand your point but applying real world logic to the game can lead to weird results. Like making it impossible for a thrown dagger weighing two pounds to force a 3 ton creature to fly 20 feet.

Ha, you should watch some wuxia flicks.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
You know, halflings get a +5 vs Fear. But aside from "Frightening Presence" that dragons have, and the Cause Fear prayer, I haven't seen any fear effects.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Rechan said:
You know, halflings get a +5 vs Fear. But aside from "Frightening Presence" that dragons have, and the Cause Fear prayer, I haven't seen any fear effects.

I'm sure the fear keyword will turn up in lots of places, but the interesting thing will be seeing how many times there is a save to end it.

(if it is very few, then perhaps the halflings could be given +5 to defence against fear attacks??)
 

Miles Pilitus

First Post
Rechan said:
You know, halflings get a +5 vs Fear. But aside from "Frightening Presence" that dragons have, and the Cause Fear prayer, I haven't seen any fear effects.
Warlocks. They've got a decent selection of fear-based effects.
 

Harr

First Post
I think the key is in the wording "The target moves". Not "You slide the target", "You push", "You pull", etc. It's not forced movement and therefore does count as the target's move.

From there you have two ways to run it, either the target is so scared that it spontaneously gets the ability to use its future move action during your turn, or it has to wait for its own turn and then move away. The former is a bit illogical within the rules, the latter is going to take up more bookeeping.

I think we'd need an official answer to go any further than that...
 

Mathew_Freeman

First Post
hong said:
Fear isn't a magical force pushing Fred away from you. It's a magical force that makes Fred want to run away.

There is no reason to suppose that running away can be done out of Fred's turn. It's normal movement that happens to be governed by a manipulated mind, so he'll have to wait until his turn to move, just like everyone else.

Ah, I'd got that wrong as well. Good to have it cleared up. That makes a lot more sense - and takes the opponent out for two rounds, not just one.
 

tafkamhokie

First Post
I could see two ways for this to make sense and be a reasonable encounter power:

1. Hit: on target's next action, they move away from you a number of squares equal to their speed plus your Charisma modifier. They can take no other actions on their turn. They may avoid difficult or hostile terrain, but the movement provokes opportunity attacks normally.

2. Hit: target immediately moves away from you a number of squares equal to their speed plus your Charisma modifier, then are immobilized (save ends). They may avoid difficult or hostile terrain, but the movement provokes opportunity attacks normally.

Either way, it would be a nice encounter power. But if the movement is immediate and they can come right back on their turn, this is a very situationally useful power at best. It could be useful for breaking up a hobgoblin phalanx or for getting an ally out of a flank, but that is about it.
 

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