So, how will Primordials be treated/used in relation to PCs?

[El Mahdi]

Somehow, this article spawned an interesting idea in me - maybe this approach is fundamentally flawed. As long as Primordials and Gods, Good and Evil, Chaos and Good keep fighting, there will be always war and conflict, and either side will suffer.

Maybe the goal of an epic tier should be to have the Primordials and the Gods come to a peaceful agreement...

Are you Mad?! Then the purpose of existence will have been fulfilled and all reality will come to a screeching halt! Story Over Man, Story Over!

People like you need to be stopped!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Are you Mad?! Then the purpose of existence will have been fulfilled and all reality will come to a screeching halt! Story Over Man, Story Over!

People like you need to be stopped!

Sounds like a nice end to a campaign. Not this "But in a 1000 years, the Evil Overdemon will come back, and new heroes have to face him. No, this time, it ends! Remember the guys that stole the gods the primordials their fire? They started this mess. We will be given it back - with interest rates. And we will say sorry, and it will never happen again."

I wouldn't mind a campaign to _really_ end. Or should this be something reserved to "Immortal" Heroes - a new tier after Epic?

 

[frankthedm]

And the only dragons in the MM are evil, too. I think we'll have to wait and see.

But the MM at least mentions non evil dragons.

I think it would be quite interesting to have a number of good (or, at least, not evil) primordials presented in other books.

Yes, that alone makes the FRCG worth a look.

 

[El Mahdi]

Sounds like a nice end to a campaign. Not this "But in a 1000 years, the Evil Overdemon will come back, and new heroes have to face him. No, this time, it ends! Remember the guys that stole the gods the primordials their fire? They started this mess. We will be given it back - with interest rates. And we will say sorry, and it will never happen again."

I wouldn't mind a campaign to _really_ end. Or should this be something reserved to "Immortal" Heroes - a new tier after Epic?

An "Immortals" tier campaign (or ruleset)? Egads!

All joking aside, it sounds pretty cool. Could definately make for a long (1st to 30th+) campaign. You could really reshape your universe after something like this.

 

[Scribble]

I don't think the Primordials are intended to be "evil" so much as "natural." A hurricaine isn't evil despite the destruction it causes.

The gods represent stability (even the evil ones) and a desire for a certain type of existance. The primordials don't really care, so this puts them at odds with the gods. It also means their followers tend to be "evil" because it's an easily corrupted philosophy.

Fire destroys stuff so obviously our leader the fire primordial wants us to burn everything! YEAH!

In reality the fire primordial probably doesn't really care. The follower is the one attributing motives.

 

[Desdichado]

I like the idea that the primordials were primoridal (heh) were actually rather harmless nature deities, more like the Vanir or something than like the jotuns. Ancient heretical texts, and these can actually be corroborated by extremely ancient archons, angels or elementals speak to the fact that the world was actually very peaceful, harmonious and otherwise pleasant before the gods made their naked and unabashed bid for power.

Then, when the PC's have firmly set their feet on the path of trying to dethrone the gods and restore the primordials... after the ship has definately sailed and their souls belong to the primordials, they'll find out that in the intervening years they've become obsessed with revenge, and their idea of fixing the world is to eliminate at least 90% of all sentient life and all higher civilization via prolonged ice ages, plagues, and other natural catastrophes.

When humanity (and uh... dwarfity and elfity, etc.?) are reduced to barely being more civilized than animals, non-tool-using and unable to use language again, they'll be satisfied that the world is back on course.

Of course, like I said, by then the ship has sailed and the PC's will be left trying to decide which is worse; the "angry hippy" primordials, or the war-promoting despotic gods.

Maybe they'll turn to demons next, looking for a suitable ruler for the world.

 

[frankthedm]

Then, when the PC's have firmly set their feet on the path of trying to dethrone the gods and restore the primordials... after the ship has definately sailed and their souls belong to the primordials, they'll find out that in the intervening years they've become obsessed with revenge, and their idea of fixing the world is to eliminate at least 90% of all sentient life and all higher civilization via prolonged ice ages, plagues, and other natural catastrophes.

Problem is more the Core material pretty much paints this picture as a default to start with.

 

[Desdichado]

Problem is more the Core material pretty much paints this picture as a default to start with.

I don't see how that's a problem. I specifically said the point is that you spend the first half of the campaign debunking that assumption. And you're not actually *lying* to your PCs about the nature of the setting, because at the time those material witnesses made their testimony about the primordials being nothing more than happy granolas frolicking with the flowers and butterflies, that's exactly what they were.

If you can't debunk core assumptions with your players, then clearly this campaign model is not for you. I find that task trivially easy to pull off, though.

Well... I would, except that I already have a reputation for making everybody evil, so my players would be suspicious of the notion that the primordials were so good.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

I'm in the midst of retooling my campaign for 4e, and one of the big things I'm working on is the religions of my homebrew campaign setting. For 3.X ed., I just had 4 generic philosophies (Light, Darkness, Nature, Knowledge) that the PCs chose to follow (or had to follow, in the case of divine spellcasting classes).

I've decided to expand it a bit & actually create deities (but still working with the philosophy idea—it'd be sorta like the option of pantheon worship in Eberron). I'm also trying to work with the new cosmology a bit—IMC, I just had the Celestial Realm (with all of the LG, NG, CG, LN, and some N outsiders there) and the Infernal Realm (with all of the CN, LE, NE, CE, and some N outsiders there). Working with the new cosmology, I'm sorta thinking of having the fall of one of the islands in the Astral Sea into the Elemental Chaos be the cause/creation of the Infernal Realm in the heart of the Elemental Chaos.

Currently I'm kicking around the idea that, IMC, Ur, the god of darkness and chaos was the one to kick off the conflict between gods & primordials (twisting and corrupting the primordials to chaos and evil in order to gain allies for his war against the gods), and that Ur is responsible for the creation of demons & devils. Proximity to Ur determines the degree of evil shown—Chaotic evil for those nearby, and just Evil for those not as close by (thus devils would be found in the upper reaches of the Infernal Realms, and demons would be in the lower reaches, closer to Ur). Ur's corrupting presence affected primordials as well, creating the likes of Orcus and whatnot (perhaps even corrupting the archons).

Then again, along the same lines, I like the idea of purified primordials, ones who became benevolent and good through the presence of An, the god of light and order (Ur's opposite #). They don't necessarily have to be Lawful Good, but at least non-malignant (representing the benevolent aspects of the elements rather than just solely the destructive aspects). Sorta-kinda like the Titans who were aligned with the Olympians and kept out of Tartarus.

The thing I'm really trying to determine is how primal-powered PCs will operate. From what's said here, it doesn't sould like the primal PC will need to choose a primordial patron and match its alignment (ala divine-powered PCs and the gods). The mention of the primordials in FR has me wondering, though—perhaps the shaman may be a primal-powered version of a cleric, including having to select a patron primordial.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

What I’d love to see is the gods portrayed as conspirators who coveted the creations of the Primordials. All the gods, not just Tharizdun, knew about the “Seed of Evil” and Its dangers, but it was Tharizdun who volunteered or was chosen to hurl the seed into the Elemental maelstrom in attempt to weaken the Primordials. His corruption was his sacrifice for the god’s Alpha Strike

One of the things I'm thinking of for my PoL world is that, during the war against the primordials, there really wasn't any good or evil. It was mostly law and chaos. However, the forces of law were losing, so either at the behest of the other gods or of his own initiative, Tharizdun sought out a weapon that would destroy the primordials. Somewhere in the universe or somewhere within himself he found the one thing that could corrupt and pollute the primordial's source of power in the Elemental Chaos - the seed of evil. Deprived of large part of their power, they primordial forces faltered and then were lost.

At first, the gods didn't fully realize the evil in the seed - they were desperate and just happy for a win. But as Tharizdun gazed into the Abyss, he was corrupted and driven insane. Learning how to siphon a great part of the corrupted elemental energy into himself, he increased his power by a terrifying degree. However, the combined might of the gods was able to stop him before his power became too great. Some gods sought to destroy him outright, but, because of his connection to the seed of evil and the Elemental Chaos, it was believed that destroying him could result in the destruction of a greater part of the universe. So he was locked away instead.

The implantation of the seed sent shockwaves throughout the cosmos, allowing evil as a metaphysical concept to take root. Some gods found it to be useful, so they embraced evil to varying degrees. It also gave others, such as Asmodeus, the ability to conceive of murder and deicide. So, in my PoL world, the fall of Tharizdun was the great "original sin" and has many similarities to the biblical Fall of Man.