D&D 5E So I ran an oldschool competitive dungeon in 5e...

[DRF]

Hi folks!

Today I started running The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan from Yawning Portal. My group has 4 players, and I'm running it pretty much as-written from the book. For those who don't know, Tamoachan is a 1st edition dungeon originally intended for tournament play that has now been adapted for 5th. In a tournament setting, players had two hours (!) to get as far as they could. That's crazy! My group spent literally two hours in the first room interacting with different stuff and being super paranoid.

I played a bit of Pathfinder and a lot of 5e. Can you guys enlighten me about AD&D and these old dungeons? How did people play!? It must have been such a widely different game.

Also, Tamoachan seems a great dungeon so far. Death by a thousand cuts indeed. The players ended the session with a long rest, and they're hurt. We haven't even gotten very far yet! I'd be surprised if they get out without any deaths. The place is also a trap-invested dungeon and they decided not to bring a rogue. Exciting stuff!

 

[Nagol]

LOL, there was no time for resting in the original! The very air is toxic and will kill the PCs if they spend too long in the dungeon. "A character will suffer 1-6 hit points of damage for every turn spent in the gas". A turn is 10 minutes and is the basic time unit for exploration in 1e.

Tourney play is always different from table play. Especially tourney play focusing on plot success as opposed to intra party roleplaying. Tourney play tends to be much more focused and decisive.

Table play varies a lot by table and the tables where those players learned to play. Skilled play in any game tends to follow the risk/reward structure of the game. 1e tends to be less forgiving than 5e so turn over of low level characters can to be quite high. The reward systems are different: 1e has a much greater emphasis on treasure and a low emphasis on rewarding combat. So 1e players tend to have much more focus on combat avoidance/stacking the deck in your favour feel.

 

[JonnyP71]

Can you guys enlighten me about AD&D and these old dungeons? How did people play!? It must have been such a widely different game.!

In addition to Nagol's comments, a key point to make is that a lot of the published dungeons around that time were really not typical campaign play, but were taken from competitive tournaments. In these events a number of groups played the same adventure simultaneously, with points being awarded - and the biggest factor in those points was the number of rooms explored, adjusted for the number of surviving characters. Characters were expected to die! There was always a time limit, and combat took up precious time, so the emphasis was to find a way through as quickly and as safely as possible - killing the beasties was something to be avoided if the group was to get a decent score.

However, as part of a campaign, these modules often need some tweaking. If you look at Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan it states character levels 5-7 on the cover, and from what I remember 4-7 in the text. The supplied tournament characters are all higher levels, plus they have a supply of spells and items specifically chosen to counteract the poison gas. In a campaign, the party will not be so lucky.

I ran the adventure recently for my AD&D group, 8 PCs that were levels 5-7 at the time. They fell into the Shrine while exploring a ruined temple area in adventure I1, Dwellers of the Forbidden City, and thus were already a little scratched, and totally unprepared. If I'd played the tournament version of the poison gas they would all have been dead within an hour, as the only healing they had was a Cleric with Cure Light Wounds, and a gem with allows it's carrier to regenerate 1 hit point per 10 minutes.

I changed the gas to cause 1 hit point of damage per 10 minutes if the PC failed a saving throw vs Poison. This made the slow drip of lost hit points much more gradual, but stuck underground, with no idea of the way out or of the size of the dungeon, it still kept the tension level very high and caused them to make a number of rash decisions in their haste.

From what I remember they finally reached clean air with most of the party down to single digit hit points, having run from a lot of creatures, ignored a lot of treasure, and furiously tried to bypass traps, while trying to keep spells in reserve as they knew they could not rest anywhere. None of the party actually died. Perfect! It was a great session.

Now to play that in 5E would be interesting, with the poison gas discouraging any form of resting, so resource management becomes ever more difficult as the adventure progress. It's something I'd like to try running.

 

[DRF]

From what I remember they finally reached clean air with most of the party down to single digit hit points, having run from a lot of creatures, ignored a lot of treasure, and furiously tried to bypass traps, while trying to keep spells in reserve as they knew they could not rest anywhere. None of the party actually died. Perfect! It was a great session.

Now to play that in 5E would be interesting, with the poison gas discouraging any form of resting, so resource management becomes ever more difficult as the adventure progress. It's something I'd like to try running.

Thanks for the insight! So far I've managed to instill dread in the players; they do fear the encounters, traps and definitely the gas, but they're not used to this old school type of play. They want to explore everything, turn every rock and look in every room. They can't leave a mystery unsolved. I think it will be the death of them down here. They managed to beat the vampire spawn in his tomb, but it was tough and they have so much left to do. Honestly I'm liking the dungeon a lot so far. It's been fun running it, but it did take a lot of preparation. All the rooms are so intricate and there are lots of small details that are important to understanding a given room and how to progress.

I'd love to be a player in an old school type of game, just to experience what it was like.

 

[Lidgar]

It was like each PC was made of tissue paper. The ones that made it to higher levels (like past 5th) figured out ways to avoid most major encounters while still collecting a good amount of loot. Once properly armed with a fair amount of magic items, you became much more durable. Oh, and magic-users then started wrecking havoc...

 

[the_redbeard]

The reward systems are different: 1e has a much greater emphasis on treasure and a low emphasis on rewarding combat. So 1e players tend to have much more focus on combat avoidance/stacking the deck in your favour feel.

One of the aspects of 1e and OD&D and B/X is a DMing procedure that is left out of 3.x and onward: Reaction Rolls. Few monsters would automatically attack. So often the players had a choice whether to negotiate, bribe, or even just immediately retreat instead of attacking.

Many old school dungeons, from Caves of Chaos to Temple of Elemental Evil, had opposing factions. The Reaction Roll gave clever players a chance to exploit those faction oppositions. It also made Charisma ANYTHING but a dump stat (charisma modified the reaction roll).

In B/X, this was a simple 2d6 chart that was easy to find, and many DMs just used that. The 1E DMG had a percentile table that was less obvious. Depending on how you learned old school DnD (if you learned from someone with a low Gygax number or someone who actually read the DMing procedures as they were clearly spelled out in B/x) or if you just picked it up, you may or may not have been in a group that used Reaction Rolls.

The 1e DMG Reaction Roll Table
%roll Reaction
01 (or less)-05 Violently hostile, immediate attack*
06-25 Hostile, immediate action*
26-45 Uncertain but 55% prone toward negative
46-55 Neutral-uninterested-uncertain
56-75 Uncertain but 55% prone toward positive
76-95 Friendly, immediate action
96-00 (or greater) Enthusiastically friendly, immediate acceptance

*Or morale check if appropriate (another less combative mechanic left out of 3.x and onward until re-introduced as an optional rule in 5e.)

 

[Shiroiken]

Tournament adventures usually required a bit of tweaking on the part of the DM if used in campaign play. In a tournament, you're given your character, and the goal is to score as many points as you can (including good RP, bypassing monsters and traps, and finding treasure). Very few player ever managed to complete a tournament adventure in the allotted time, and doing so was almost guaranteed victory (there were prizes). In a home game, a lot of the reasons for the hurry up playstyle becomes disjointed and odd, because time in game and time as a player are totally different.

And yes, it was a wildly different game. Combat was only entered if necessary, since you got far more xp from treasure than monsters. Traps were the bane of all things, since most of them were potentially instant death/maiming. The game tested the skill of the players, rather than the characters, since most actions by the players were narrated, rather than done by rolls.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I'd also like to add, specifically because you (OP) mentioned his players checking "everything". With "old school play", which 1e most certainly is...it's kind of the base of what old school play is... when a player says "I search", the DM is expecting the details. Players that fail to give details are, at lest for how I DM, assumed to be doing it quickly and without any serious care. For example, "I search the bed". I would assume the PC walks directly over to it, drops to his knees and looks underneath, then throws back the pillows, then the blankets/sheets, then flips the mattress or starts to rummage through whatever the bedding is. If there is a poisonous snake under the blankets I would give it automatic surprise and thusly a free attack/s.

With 1e, the key method of discovering stuff is the player's choice of actions and description of where/how/with what. With 3e and later this was pretty much reduced to "We search the room", everyone makes a Perception/Investigation roll, DM consults various DC's for the three things of note in the room, and announces "You guys find a silver brooch hidden in the pocket of one of the coats in the ogres bed of refuse". That would never happen in 1e. There were no real 'skills' in 1e (Proficiencies came to 1e in the Dungeoneers and Wilderness survival guides; there were "Secondary Skills" in the DMG a DM/Player could use to give a 'job' the character had before turning to a life of an adventurer...but they were vague, like "Farmer", or "Carpenter"). Because there were no 'skills', how successful a group was at finding the hidden treasures, or avoiding encounters, or overcoming an obstacle was almost entirely based on the PLAYERS skill at play...NOT the characters.

So what the OP's group did...spend two hours searching a room...could be very much Old School Style; unless that was spent making roll after roll after roll after roll on Skills or Stats, hoping to simply beat a DC. In other words "I'll search the floor. I got a 14"..."Nothing? Ok, I'll search the edge where the floor and south wall meets. I got a 17"..."Nothing? Ok, how about the North wall? I got a 13...then the West, 19 and East 23! Anything?". If that was closer to the 'searching', then yeah..."you're doing it wrong" (from a 1e/old school perspective).

I've ran the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan about...three, maybe 4 times. Twice I used the "tournament rules". Very effective at motivating the players to 'get out' rather than 'explore'. The other time(s) was very much exploration...and always very evocative! One thing that C1 does is have a very distinctive style and flavour to it (the whole aztec/mayan thing). Love running it! Probably run it again some day.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[DRF]

I've ran the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan about...three, maybe 4 times. Twice I used the "tournament rules". Very effective at motivating the players to 'get out' rather than 'explore'. The other time(s) was very much exploration...and always very evocative! One thing that C1 does is have a very distinctive style and flavour to it (the whole aztec/mayan thing). Love running it! Probably run it again some day.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Thanks for the insight! I didn't mind that they spent so much time in the first room, I was just surprised that it was so much time. There's a lot of interesting things in the room, so I guess it can happen. As you will know, there's only one door out but they never really tried to just open it. They were really paranoid, which was fun.

I'd love to hear your Tamoachan experiences! Do's/dont's etc. I'm really liking the flavour so far. The vampire spawn was a brutal fight, and I'm wondering what else will be in store for them! I can't wait for some of the later traps.

One thing I am strugglin with is pressure plate traps. Often the group will sort of just wander down a corridor until something happens. That leaves them with little chance of discovering or avoiding such a trap, and I don't want to be like "Gotcha! Trap time!", but that's what it feels like. DC 20 is also pretty brutal, but I guess that's to be expected in such a place.

Please, I'd love to hear your Tamoachan stories and impressions!

 

[pming]

Hiya!
[MENTION=6910474]DRF[/MENTION], on thing about 1e was, iirc, traps like pit traps, falling block traps, etc. were not "100% guaranteed". I believe that when a PC "walked over" a trap, the DM rolled 1d6. On a 1 (or was it 1-2?) the trap was sprung...otherwise it wasn't. I have had it where an entire party of PC's walked 'over' a pit trap, then got into a nasty fight, and when the survivors ran away, sprung it on the way back. They were not impressed. I just kinda smiled as a DM and shrugged my shoulders.

I don't *think* that was a house rule...but last time I played straight 1e was about 5 or 6 years ago.

With regard to C1, one of the most memorable encounters I remember is the one with the gibbering mouther. I can remember DM'ing it as a sort of "amalgamation" of all the poor souls that were sacrificed down there. It had a much more 'face-like' look to it in stead of just a mass of eyes and mouths...sort of like an ever-undulating mass of tortured people stuck inside some sort of unbreakable pudding-shape where faces would press out against the 'skin' in wails of agony and desperate pleas for help in all sorts of languages. Pretty Lovecraftian, really. Really had the players icked out and such.

I also remember that when we played it in 'campaign mode' (not tournament) I had some chance of the PC's walking into a pocket of 'bad air' so it always kept them on edge when I asked them each to roll some dice (can't remember the chance). I also played up the "spooky haunted-ness" of it that game. Shadows that seemed to move on their own, whispers, ghostly shapes that turn out to be whisps of fog, that kind of thing.

One thing with "old school" modules...they can be run in any number of ways without much (if any) tweaking! There's no 'pre-planned' story line or expectation of player choice (usually). Wish WotC would make good old fashioned "Dungeon Adventure Modules". Glad that Goodman Games made the whole Dungeon Delve Classics! I use some of them for other "D&D" games (and non-d&D games!). Great stuff!

^_^

Paul L. Ming