So THAT'S why fantasy is #1...

[Chainsaw Mage]

This thread on why fantasy/D&D is the dominant RPG genre has been fascinating. Reading through everyone's ideas I've had a few minor epiphanies (is that an oxymoron? ) . . .

1. One problem with doing science fiction in an RPG is that the definition of science fiction is constantly changing. Traveller was considered cutting edge "hard sci-fi" in the late 70's; today it's seen as "retro". Right now Transhuman Space is representative of the latest sci-fi themes, but will anyone still take Transhuman Space seriously in 10 years? Witness the slow death of the cyberpunk genre in both novels and film and you can see why Shadowrun hasn't had much staying power. Fantasy, OTOH, is timeless.

2. The problem above also applies to "modern" settings. In a mere 5 years d20 Modern will probably seem outdated. Imagine if TSR had created a "Modern" RPG in the mid 80's...players would be whipping out their 10 lb. cell phones and tooling around in their Datsun sportcars, all the while listening to Duran Duran.

3. Long term campaigns don't work very well outside the fantasy genre. I suppose the best reason for this, as was mentioned, is that in some of the other genres there's only so far you can progress before you defeat the entire purpose of the genre (Uber powerful horror PCs???). What does a 20th level "modern" PC do, anyway? Become the President? In fantasy, however, the possibilities are limitless.

Just a few thoughts as I read everyone's reflections thus far...

 

[Desdichado]

1. One problem with doing science fiction in an RPG is that the definition of science fiction is constantly changing. Traveller was considered cutting edge "hard sci-fi" in the late 70's; today it's seen as "retro". Right now Transhuman Space is representative of the latest sci-fi themes, but will anyone still take Transhuman Space seriously in 10 years? Witness the slow death of the cyberpunk genre in both novels and film and you can see why Shadowrun hasn't had much staying power. Fantasy, OTOH, is timeless.

That's a fair assessment. At the same time, stuff like Starship Troopers, while what -- 50 years old? -- still has staying power. Relatively recent movie, the book is still in print, the title has been licensed to be a new RPG...

Some of what you say, for certain settings at least, is true, though.

2. The problem above also applies to "modern" settings. In a mere 5 years d20 Modern will probably seem outdated. Imagine if TSR had created a "Modern" RPG in the mid 80's...players would be whipping out their 10 lb. cell phones and tooling around in their Datsun sportcars, all the while listening to Duran Duran.

Hey, I still do all of the above! Still, I fail to see how the presence of a few items of equipment makes a game obsolete. Top Secret S.I. was the game that brought me back to gaming in college, and it was already 10 years old. It still worked fine for the kinds of stories we wanted to tell, and those weren't retro. Is Buffy, for example, significantly different as a game if it's set now, or during the height of the disco craze with Studio 54 a prominent landmark in the campaign? I think not.

3. Long term campaigns don't work very well outside the fantasy genre. I suppose the best reason for this, as was mentioned, is that in some of the other genres there's only so far you can progress before you defeat the entire purpose of the genre (Uber powerful horror PCs???). What does a 20th level "modern" PC do, anyway? Become the President? In fantasy, however, the possibilities are limitless.

There's plenty of long-term potential in a game without levelling up. Does James Bond ever level up? Mack Bolan? Jason Bourne? Fox Moulder?

Somehow they manage to be long-running "campaigns" in another medium.

 

[Desdichado]

Yikes, threadkiller am I?

 

[Napftor]

Yikes, threadkiller am I?

No, that's my job (just you wait!). I'll just throw my hat into the ring Chainsaw Mage has made. Fantasy is indeed timeless and there are just sooooo many possibilities that the whole genre defies conventional thinking. That is to mean that any games in other genres still harken back to the same themes presented first in fantasy/myth tales--good vs. evil.

 

[Mystery Man]

By definitions of scifi do you mean sub-genres? I used to have a subscription to Isaac Asimovs sci/fi mag (still have a lot of old issues somewhere). It's filled with a very eclictic collection of authors approaches to writing science fiction,fom horror to the surreal to space opera. It was a pretty cool mag, I stopped my subscription years ago because I moved and just never reupped so I really have no idea what they put in there now.

 

[Umbran]

There's plenty of long-term potential in a game without levelling up. Does James Bond ever level up? Mack Bolan? Jason Bourne? Fox Moulder?

Somehow they manage to be long-running "campaigns" in another medium.

Yes, but there's a place where the analogy between passive fiction (like novels, TV, and movies) and active fiction (like RPGs) breaks down - character development.

It is a rare gamer who is satisfied only by internal psychological development. Most also want to see a mechanical reflection - they want the things the character learns over time and through experience to be reflected upon the sheet. Whether it's done through levelling or slow progression of purchasing skill points, or some other mechanic, folks generally want their character to change and become better over time.

 

[Desdichado]

Yes, but there's a place where the analogy between passive fiction (like novels, TV, and movies) and active fiction (like RPGs) breaks down - character development.

It is a rare gamer who is satisfied only by internal psychological development. Most also want to see a mechanical reflection - they want the things the character learns over time and through experience to be reflected upon the sheet. Whether it's done through levelling or slow progression of purchasing skill points, or some other mechanic, folks generally want their character to change and become better over time.

Actually, in most fiction that's done as well. A more granular advancement system (such as many, many games have) models this just fine.

 

[trancejeremy]

I'm not sure Traveller was ever cutting edge.

I mean, when it first came out, there were home computers. Not great ones, mind you, but they existed. Yet Traveller computers still seemed to be based on the vaccuum tube technolgy.

I've always thought it was mostly inspired by H. Beam Piper's stuff, which was mostly written in the 50s and early 60s.

I also don't take Transhuman Space seriously now.

But Shadowrun is actually still pretty popular. I don't like it now, but because of the rules changes they made in 3E, not because of the setting has gotten old.

 

[RangerWickett]

I think it's the scantily-clad chicks.

And I'm talking about the players, not the artwork.

 

[Agback]

1. One problem with doing science fiction in an RPG is that the definition of science fiction is constantly changing. Traveller was considered cutting edge "hard sci-fi" in the late 70's; today it's seen as "retro".

Sure. On the other hand, sometimes you luck out. I have an SF setting that I designed in 1987. When Al Qaida attacked the World Trade Center I had to cancel my game because it was suddenly too close to the knuckle.

2. The problem above also applies to "modern" settings. In a mere 5 years d20 Modern will probably seem outdated. Imagine if TSR had created a "Modern" RPG in the mid 80's...players would be whipping out their 10 lb. cell phones and tooling around in their Datsun sportcars, all the while listening to Duran Duran.

So? The characters buy new stuff when it comes out. Yesterday I didn't have a GPS receiver. Today I do. Why can't a character do the same?

3. Long term campaigns don't work very well outside the fantasy genre.

Your mileage may vary. My longest-running campaign was SF. I've also run Private Detective, Spy, and Journalist campaigns that have lasted as long as my fantasy ones.

I suppose the best reason for this, as was mentioned, is that in some of the other genres there's only so far you can progress before you defeat the entire purpose of the genre (Uber powerful horror PCs???). What does a 20th level "modern" PC do, anyway? Become the President? In fantasy, however, the possibilities are limitless.

Yes, but characters don't have to start as invertebrate incompetents, and they don't have to end up as demigods. that is a peculiarly D&D assumption, which not even other fantasy RPGs share. It is possible to keep score without becoming rapidly and grossly more powerful. And some players are even perfectly happy not to keep score.

Regards,


Agback