So, we fought a level 26 dragon...

[Nightchilde-2]

I ran a short adventure with my group over the last couple of sessions, partially to test out the epic level 4e rules and partially to wrap up a very old storyline. The characters were all level 26, and the adventure culminated in a fight with a level 26 white dragon (using Rime's stats from the Draconomicon).

The fight took 4 1/2 hours. Now, realize though that we play online (which slows things down) via MapTools. We almost always have some sort of technical issue with at least one of the players' connections and/or computers (which, again, slows things down a bit) so this fight, if it were f2f, wouldn't have taken *that* long.

There were 5 characters, the game was set in the Realms. Sorry, but I don't remember most of their Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies; 2 fighters (one of which was a Chosen), an eladrin warlock (Chosen of Elistraee), a human warlord and an elven ranger. To give you some perspective, this wraps up a storyline that started in 2000 with the 3.0 rules in a box that held the god Chaos (this from a homebrew world) had gotten pushed through a planar portal to the Realms, where a powerful elven lich found it and was going to open it and release Chaos in an attempt to destroy Waterdeep. The PCs defeated her, took the box and was going to hide it deep within the North before that particular campaign came to a halt.

It was a long fight. Frostmire kept recharging her Blizzard power and kept using it. At one point, she managed to effectively shut down the two melee characters with her Frightening Presence.

Our warlock, Enmai, moved into an area near the box that held Chaos which, unfortunately for her, had a..oh, I forget the name of the hazard..the chaos one..it’s level 26…entering an affected square with a magic item or casting a spell (y’know, like all the warlock powers) when in an affected square caused a nasty psychic damage/dazing attack. Out of teleportation abilities and Restrained (and unable to save against that Restrained condition), she pretty much kept having to suck up the chaos field’s effects every round when she used one of her warlock spells.

The warlord is awesome at high levels, handing out free attacks like they were candy.

I managed to take out Enmai (well, she helped to take herself out) to dying status and the warlord (who was able to use his Ring of the Phoenix) and pretty much everyone got bloodied and/or very low on hit points at one point or another. It might have been a nastier fight if I had managed to not roll 1s and 2s. A lot.

Also, 30 points of cold damage per round from her aura was nasty. I did keep forgetting to use Frostmire’s Fling ability (though I did manage to remember AND successfully use it once to knock one of the fighters away).

Overall, I think it played quite similar to low-level gameplay (our normal game started at 1st level and is currently 5th level, almost 6th). It wasn't TOO much more complex, and seemed to maintain the encounter balance seen at lower levels quite well which was, IME, an issue with other editions of the game (please don't start an edition war over that one statement, k thx. Just an observation, not a jab).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That sounds great.

My only dragon fighting experience was DMing a low-level party vs a low-level black dragon. Said fight sucked, mainly because the PCs couldn't hit and the dragon did pitiful damage ... but had loads of hp.

Of course, it was 1st-level PCs vs a 4th-level dragon, that probably hurt the hitting.

I'm glad to see level-balanced dragon encounters seem to work well.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Of course, it was 1st-level PCs vs a 4th-level dragon, that probably hurt the hitting.

I'm glad to see level-balanced dragon encounters seem to work well.

Me too!

Both the PCs and the dragon were hitting about half the time, which if I understand correctly is about right.

High level warlords are frighteningly effective with a player that is tactically capable (as was our warlord player), though not overpowering. Towards the end of the fight, the fighters began having to rely on their potions 'cause the warlord was out of abilities that healed.

It was extremely fun, IMHO.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Night - Having never played Epic (or Paragon levels, for that matter), I'm very interested in reports like this and I thank you for sharing.

I admit I'm a bit concerned about your statement, however, that the epic fight did not seem too much different than lower level fights. While we are enjoying our low-level fights in our currently-4th level campaign, I'm worried that such sentiments will grow stale if the game doesn't change as one increases in level.

Here's the quandary as I see it: 4e introduced a strong foundation of mathematical progression that helps maintain balance through all levels of play, something that was sorely lacking in previous editions of D&D. All well and good. But if the feeling isn't there amongst the PCs that they are growing in power, then have we achieved a design that gives us what we wanted (balance) at the expense of enjoyment (increasing levels of power)?

For 4E to work, I think, each tier of adventuring should feel markedly different from the other tiers. When players reach Paragon level, those fights and encounters should seem different from the encounters they faced in the Heroic Tier. Ditto for Epic.

I will allow that "enjoyment" is the #1 goal of any design. If Heroic = Paragon = Epic and all tiers = fun, then that's a win. But I do have some trepidation on this issue.

WP

 

[Sir Brennen]

I admit I'm a bit concerned about your statement, however, that the epic fight did not seem too much different than lower level fights. While we are enjoying our low-level fights in our currently-4th level campaign, I'm worried that such sentiments will grow stale if the game doesn't change as one increases in level.

My take was Nightchilde said the fight's balance was similar to lower levels. I'd think that the greater number of options and effects available to characters and foes (powers, feats, magic items) will change the feel of the fights tier to tier. But the battles themselves should still take about as long and not start encountering balance problems (like unbeatable/unwinnable saving throws) previous editions did at higher levels.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

My take was Nightchilde said the fight's balance was similar to lower levels. I'd think that the greater number of options and effects available to characters and foes (powers, feats, magic items) will change the feel of the fights tier to tier. But the battles themselves should still take about as long and not start encountering balance problems (like unbeatable/unwinnable saving throws) previous editions did at higher levels.

Couldn't have said it better myself, and that's what I meant..probably not the best wording on that particular line in my initial post.