So, what makes 1e adventures so great?
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
Tuzenbach said:??? What's this???
What's the name of this? Where can I find one? How valuable is it? Do you have one? What's it like?
Not terribly valuable since it's on the site for free.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x7
MerricB said:
In the forward to Q1, Gygax said that initially it was delayed due to workload, and then when he went back to work on it he found he'd used a lot of his original ideas in the Temple of Elemental Evil (which presumably was in a more developed state at that point, though I don't think it saw print until a couple of years later). Mike Carr got the nod because he had a fresh approach, and a cool idea for a dungeon layout without any particular project in mind for it... that became the Demonweb.
If it's accurate (and I have no reason to believe Gygax was writing that intro with a gun to his head), then based on how TOEE turned out I'm glad Carr got the nod. The Demonweb is one of the neatest "dungeons" I've seen, while TOEE is a nice big dungeon crawl but not particularly innovative. IMHO, of course.
I think the near-absence of a "plot" is also a major factor in nostalgia for the "classic" modules. These adventures were not overly concerned about how your PCs got to the front door, or what motivation they might have for barging in and stealing a bunch of treasure. Most of the adventures dealt with player motivation in a single paragraph of boxed text or not at all.
This resulted in a game experience consisting almost entirely of moving figures on a map and fighting dangerous beasts (or doing the same in your head). That means that from start to finish, you're actually _playing Dungeons & Dragons_, as opposed to sitting around and talking about what kind of outfit your guy is wearing or haggling over equipment prices with an NPC.
That's not to say that a less action-oriented game is inferior, or that some people played a more minutia-obsessed game in the olden days, but I do believe, in general, the ratio of time spent dinking around to time spent rolling dice was much more in favor of game play in the olden days than it was in, say, the late 1980s or early 1990s, where a good official Dungeons & Dragons adventure was as hard to come by as a Gary Gygax editorial in Dragon magazine.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
This resulted in a game experience consisting almost entirely of moving figures on a map and fighting dangerous beasts (or doing the same in your head). That means that from start to finish, you're actually _playing Dungeons & Dragons_, as opposed to sitting around and talking about what kind of outfit your guy is wearing or haggling over equipment prices with an NPC.
That's not to say that a less action-oriented game is inferior, or that some people played a more minutia-obsessed game in the olden days, but I do believe, in general, the ratio of time spent dinking around to time spent rolling dice was much more in favor of game play in the olden days than it was in, say, the late 1980s or early 1990s, where a good official Dungeons & Dragons adventure was as hard to come by as a Gary Gygax editorial in Dragon magazine.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Celebrim
Legend
Terseness: The old modules could pack A LOT of gaming into just a few pages. Take B2: Keep on the Borderlands. This module easily packs 32+ hours of gaming into as many pages. The module may seem thematically simple, but it had alot of different monsters in it, a variaty of traps, and treasures hidden in almost every way imaginable. It chiefly suffers from a poorly designed map IMO, but remapped with a more classic approach and with a decent DM setting up the struggle between the keep's defenders and the insidious evil cult of chaos I dare say it would stand up to much of what is published today.
That last point is critical to understanding why the old modules are so popular. Alot of stuff necessary for a good module has been left out of virtually all the old classics. It's entirely up to the DM to add the missing material and flesh the adventure out. It's precisely because we've seen them run in thier proper glory that we think well of the old modules.
Purity: Until recently, the quality of the old modules as pure dungeon crawls had not been equaled. It isn't until you get modules like RttToEE and Sunless Citadel and HoNS that you really start to see the art of the dungeon matching the early dungeons in sheer quality of design. There is something very compelling about classic dungeon crawling that seemed to have been lost for a long period in D&D. I can tell almost immediately whether a player learned his dungeon crawling skills in the old school dungeons. The old school players have a lot more faith in the power of 10' poles, long lengths of rope, bottles of whiskey, flasks of oil, torches, iron spikes, chalk and the like than modern players. The old school players are far more methodical in play. Newer players generally have bad 'dungeon hygene', are inappropriately incautious opening doors, and tend to think searching a room thuroughly involves only throwing a d20.
Map Quality: I complained about B2's low quality map design, but in many cases the map design of the early modules have never been equaled. C1 'Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan' is brilliant. S1 is a masterpeice of sparse design. Very little is wasted and though the module is actually highly linear, it never feels linear. U1 is awesome in conveying story through location, and until 'Sunless Citadel' was probably the definitive introductory D&D module. The real classics though are I3, I4, I5, and I6. Simply put, the map design for I6: Ravenloft has never been equalled. In terms of use of space, Castle Ravenloft is the best designed dungeon in the history of the game. The Pyramid in I3 is a close second. There are some equally well done and equally inventive 3D maps in the Dragon Lance modules, but they lack the terseness of I3 and I6. They have far too much blank and redundant space.
Scope: The early modules really felt like massive adventures. When you were done with them, you felt you'd accomplished alot. Your typical modern 16 page or 32 page adventure feels like a television episode in an action adventure series. It's by comparison breezier, quicker, and more episodic than an old school module. The 'Tomb of Horrors' only has 32 small locations, but when you first journey into its depths it seems frightenly enormous.
That last point is critical to understanding why the old modules are so popular. Alot of stuff necessary for a good module has been left out of virtually all the old classics. It's entirely up to the DM to add the missing material and flesh the adventure out. It's precisely because we've seen them run in thier proper glory that we think well of the old modules.
Purity: Until recently, the quality of the old modules as pure dungeon crawls had not been equaled. It isn't until you get modules like RttToEE and Sunless Citadel and HoNS that you really start to see the art of the dungeon matching the early dungeons in sheer quality of design. There is something very compelling about classic dungeon crawling that seemed to have been lost for a long period in D&D. I can tell almost immediately whether a player learned his dungeon crawling skills in the old school dungeons. The old school players have a lot more faith in the power of 10' poles, long lengths of rope, bottles of whiskey, flasks of oil, torches, iron spikes, chalk and the like than modern players. The old school players are far more methodical in play. Newer players generally have bad 'dungeon hygene', are inappropriately incautious opening doors, and tend to think searching a room thuroughly involves only throwing a d20.
Map Quality: I complained about B2's low quality map design, but in many cases the map design of the early modules have never been equaled. C1 'Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan' is brilliant. S1 is a masterpeice of sparse design. Very little is wasted and though the module is actually highly linear, it never feels linear. U1 is awesome in conveying story through location, and until 'Sunless Citadel' was probably the definitive introductory D&D module. The real classics though are I3, I4, I5, and I6. Simply put, the map design for I6: Ravenloft has never been equalled. In terms of use of space, Castle Ravenloft is the best designed dungeon in the history of the game. The Pyramid in I3 is a close second. There are some equally well done and equally inventive 3D maps in the Dragon Lance modules, but they lack the terseness of I3 and I6. They have far too much blank and redundant space.
Scope: The early modules really felt like massive adventures. When you were done with them, you felt you'd accomplished alot. Your typical modern 16 page or 32 page adventure feels like a television episode in an action adventure series. It's by comparison breezier, quicker, and more episodic than an old school module. The 'Tomb of Horrors' only has 32 small locations, but when you first journey into its depths it seems frightenly enormous.
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Telas
Explorer
Well, how do I follow a post by Erik Mona....
Poorly, I guess.
I first played D&D in 1979. Novelty was a big part of the early modules, but there were some other elements as well. As Erik mentioned, a lot of time was spent playing the game, not arguing tactics, looking up spells, or trying to manipulate the rules.
For an exellent early adventure, I recommend U1, The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh. The "haunted house" has never failed to entertain a party of any generation of gamers.
A HUGE advantage of the old modules is that most of the "modern" players never saw them. You could probably kill off the vast majority of current D&Ders with S1, The Tomb of Horrors.
Or an Explosion Dog (sorry, Erik).
Telas
Poorly, I guess.
I first played D&D in 1979. Novelty was a big part of the early modules, but there were some other elements as well. As Erik mentioned, a lot of time was spent playing the game, not arguing tactics, looking up spells, or trying to manipulate the rules.
For an exellent early adventure, I recommend U1, The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh. The "haunted house" has never failed to entertain a party of any generation of gamers.
A HUGE advantage of the old modules is that most of the "modern" players never saw them. You could probably kill off the vast majority of current D&Ders with S1, The Tomb of Horrors.
Or an Explosion Dog (sorry, Erik).
Telas
Zelligars Apprentice
Explorer
Hi, all!
Here's my 2cp on this: the difference between older modules and more modern adventures is kind of like the difference between a Robert E. Howard short story and a Robert Jordan novel. That is, the older adventures had just enough detail to create a feel, but mostly had plenty of action. Also, with only a couple of exceptions, they were short. The modern adventure, on the other hand, is packed with tons of detail, plot, and lengthy character development of NPCs. And are MUCH longer.
Please note: I am NOT making a judgement about which is "better". Each has their advantages and disadvantages.
Thanks for listening.
Here's my 2cp on this: the difference between older modules and more modern adventures is kind of like the difference between a Robert E. Howard short story and a Robert Jordan novel. That is, the older adventures had just enough detail to create a feel, but mostly had plenty of action. Also, with only a couple of exceptions, they were short. The modern adventure, on the other hand, is packed with tons of detail, plot, and lengthy character development of NPCs. And are MUCH longer.
Please note: I am NOT making a judgement about which is "better". Each has their advantages and disadvantages.
Thanks for listening.
Patman21967
First Post
Erik,
Started Maure Castle as a side game tonight, when all my players can't be there for the main game. It was a meat-grinder. After waking up the Horrible Iron Golem, 2 died and the other 2 went running like prepubescent girls. The look on ones face when he said 14 points of damage, I said bounce, he said, " but my weapn is admantine " I said DR 15/- he said " I run"
Maure castle in Dungeon is a good example of a early edition mod.
For my money though, you cannot beat the "old" Judges Guild stuff...Treasure Vaults of Lindoran, Fortress Badabaskor, the Portals series, Hellpits of Nightfang, Tegel Manor. they were great. I have so much stuff from the late 70's and 80's, I have most packed away.
Started Maure Castle as a side game tonight, when all my players can't be there for the main game. It was a meat-grinder. After waking up the Horrible Iron Golem, 2 died and the other 2 went running like prepubescent girls. The look on ones face when he said 14 points of damage, I said bounce, he said, " but my weapn is admantine " I said DR 15/- he said " I run"
Maure castle in Dungeon is a good example of a early edition mod.
For my money though, you cannot beat the "old" Judges Guild stuff...Treasure Vaults of Lindoran, Fortress Badabaskor, the Portals series, Hellpits of Nightfang, Tegel Manor. they were great. I have so much stuff from the late 70's and 80's, I have most packed away.
