So, what was the deal with Zelazny's second Amber series sucking so badly?

[Felon]

Much as I love Corwin- and I think he'd agree with me here- I wouldn't say he's a hero's hero. He does some things that can be characterized as heroic- and some decidedly selfless things- but he can also be pretty damn cold-blooded. My favorite Corwin scene is when he runs away from Borel at the Courts of Chaos and tricks him into an ambush, killing the other swordsman. "Oh, basely done!" cries Borel as he lay, dying. To which Corwin merely replies- "This isn't exactly the Olympic games."

Great scene. I guess I meant "hero" in the same sense one would call Conan a great hero, despite the character's amoral streak. He's somebody I could really root for.

The notion that Merlin relies too much on his magic, items, and powers to get out of danger making him unheroic seems a bit... odd, to me. After all, they are *his* powers and abilities. He's not quite the physical threat his father was (he's not the second or third best swordsman in the universe... but then, he hasn't had centuries to become so), but he is pretty darned powerful a magician- when he takes the time to lay out his spells. Corwin, had he had those abilities, would surely have made use of them, too. He only narrowly escapes death by the grace of the Jewel of Judgement at one point, and a couple of times by virtue of the Trumps. Does that make him more or less heroic than Merlin, who uses similar means to survive and prosper?

Insofar as that Corwin had to be resourceful in how he used the finite powers at his disposal, then yes I'd say it makes him more heroic than a character whose powers are decidedly open-ended--including some instant-death effects like a cardiac arrest spell, and something called "Concerto for Cuisinart and Microwave". In one case, the ground rules of the power are laid-out for the reader, and when the character engineers a clever way of using it, the reader thinks "wow, why didn't I think of that?".

In the latter case, the power is so conveniently utilitarian that it's easy to put the character in a seemingly impossible situation and then have him "poof" his way out, and to a gullible reader it looks clever because they don't notice that the writer just makes up the rules as he goes along (kind of like a mystery writer who introduces new clues or characters in the last five pages). I do respect an underdog who wins a fight with his wits more than a guy who can kill you just by pointing his finger at you.

I would also go so far as to say that ring he finds at the end--which really ramps up the power creep to pointless proportions--isn't really "his". Rather, he becomes its tool. Having him fall ass-backwards into semi-omnipotence and brush off all of his problems with some deux ex machina was a pretty weak way to put a capstone on the series. Don't know how that can be viewed as anything less than a cop-out.

Add to that, there is a lot more raw power being tossed around on all sides- the first series was much more of a swashbuckling jaunt, while the second is a magefest. I know a lot of people dislike what they see as the power creep, or munchkin effect, that seems to accompany the Merlin tales.

Yep, that's about what does it for me.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble.

Actually, that was a great post. Gave me a few things worth reconsidering.

You should check out the short stories, if you haven't read them. Very good- particularly (and this probably won't surprise you) "Blue Horse, Dancing Mountain" and "Hall of Mirrors", which feature Corwin.

I may have read those already, but I will check into it. Thanks.

 

[Felon]

The first amber series is better than the second in my opinion.. yet I enjoyed the Merlin books too. I do think they might have been a little more rushed as Zelazny was terminally ill when he wrote them wasn't he?

As I understand it, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and it took him very quickly. It surprised a lot of folks, including some of his close friends.

Like I said, I only discovered his stuff after his death. Much like one of my other favorite writers, Karl Edward Wagner, who died about the same time.

Both very tragic losses.

 

[Felon]

How was this any less rude?

I'd say FL's got an odd point of view. I was expressing a negative opinion about some stories I read--last I checked, there's no onus on the part of the audience to be kind to a story that they detest out of deference to the creator. Rather, after they pay the price of admission, the audience gets to call'em as they see'em. Fast Learner's remark, OTOH, was a personal attack. There is an onus to be civil to people even when they express an opinion you don't agree with.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I liked the characters in both series, but I didn't like the metaphysics. The way the great pattern and its chaos counterpart suddenly started to be sentient and talk to various characters was unappealing to me. I didn't like the notion of pattern ghosts. And I disliked the AI that Merlin made; very deus ex machina, I thought.

A nagging problem I have with the series (both quintets) is the issue of time dilation; does time at the courts go faster, or slower, than at amber?

 

[Cthulhudrew]

A nagging problem I have with the series (both quintets) is the issue of time dilation; does time at the courts go faster, or slower, than at amber?

It's variable, from what I can tell (it's Chaos, after all.

In the first series, we're told by Corwin that time runs faster there, which is why he can't get a Trump call through to Amber very easily, and why Chaos already has an army assembled despite just having been trounced by the Guns of Avalon. At the same time, though, his son Merlin is an adult by the time the two men first meet, despite having been conceived by Corwin only weeks (months at the most) before said meeting. Then, finally, during Corwin's monologue at the end of "Courts of Chaos", he mentions that "years have passed in Amber, and more will pass before I return" or something to that effect, even though his speech comes only a few hours after the Patternfall battle was fought outside of the Courts.

I don't recall them mentioning it much in the second series, except that I believe Merlin heads to a fast time shadow near Chaos at one point to heal up in one of the later books (the shadow he played in as a kid with Rhanda, the shroudling, IIRC.)

 

[Rackhir]

Finally reading Damnation Alley right now- that has so much visual appeal- it totally (in my head at least) plays out like one of those 70s/80s action/road flicks- something like Road Warrior meets Escape From New York.

Ah, you do know that "Damnation Alley" was made into a Movie back in the 70's, either that or it was a novelization of the script he did for the movie.

Damnation Alley

I liked the first couple of books of the second amber series quite a bit, but the last few were kind of weak. Little trivia. The original cover of Trumps of Doom, the first of the second series, was a ripoff of the cover that Micheal Whelan did for the Fred Saberhaggen Berserker novel "Brother Berserker". In fact I think he sued them over that cover.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Ah, you do know that "Damnation Alley" was made into a Movie back in the 70's, either that or it was a novelization of the script he did for the movie.

Damnation Alley

I didn't know that. I'll have to check it out, though the reviews don't seem terribly good.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Fred Saberhaggen Berserker novel "Brother Berserker".

"Brother Assassin." Bloody good read. I wasn't expecting time travel in a Berserker book

 

[Dakkareth]

I like both arcs, though there might be a slight preference for second as I'm a sucker for mage characters .

 

[Gryll]

If I had to pick my three favorite writers, Roger Zelazny would definitely make that list. The first five books of the Amber series are possibly my favorite books of all time. But boy did the second Amber series suck.

Corwin was a brilliant, resourceful character I could empathize with. A hero's hero. Merlin was a shrugging schmuck who depended on his spells, magic items, and super-powers to get out of trouble (i.e. he was much more like a D&D character than his father). When locked in a cave where he can't use magic, he just sits there like a helpless jerk until someone lets him out. It was almost as if the reader was not supposed to like Merlin very much.

Now, I didn't discover Zelazny until after he died about ten years ago. Did he ever express exactly what he was trying to accomplish with the second series? Was it one of those Douglas Adams things where your publisher pesters you for a sequel until you finally cave in with a lackluster, inferior effort?

You're trying to compare Order to Chaos. They share the same bloodline but have two entirely different upbringings.