D&D 5E So what's exactly wrong with the fighter?

Wasn't that the sort of thing you were arguing against upthread? With Celtavian? That I replied to?

I don't have a specific proposal outside of "gee, declarative abilities are nifty, and it sucks that they're all gated behind spells, so maybe let's fix that."

Celtavian and I were discussing whether fighters or paladins make a better defensive tank, with and without Dodge. It was a tangent from the main discussion.

I have yet to see a non-combat-oriented proposal for broadening the fighter's repertoire out of combat. During combat they are fine, I don't think that's even controversial, but I see occasional wistful comments from people like yourself asking for non-combat Vancian expendable ("declarative" in EzekielRaiden's terminology) options for the fighter. Since there is no proposal, there's no way to evaluate it as sensible vs. ridiculous. I will say that if I wanted to scratch that itch for myself, I'd probably look to equipment lists a la GURPS: High Tech/Low Tech instead of to pseudo-Vancian powers. I'd let you buy grappling hooks, superior plowshares, medical kits, sextants, blasting powder, heliographs, and better horseshoes (and fantastic mounts like Hippogriffs). Somehow I doubt that's the kind of thing you're looking for, but to the extent that I see a gap in 5E it is that lack of technological toys.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I also enjoy short rest healing, so it's not an issue for me.

That aside, I do think that people who want to do away with short rest healing are looking for a game where combat is more dangerous to predators like the PCs. I believe this is especially true in cases where the overnight healing would be replaced with the AD&D rates.

I don't think combat actually becomes much more dangerous; you just increase the priority of magical healing. By 5E RAW magical healing can be pretty much ignored if you want to.

In short, I think people who dislike short rest healing dislike it for fluff reasons and not for game-balance reasons. I'm sympathetic to this point of view because I also prefer the AD&D healing rates aesthetically; but there are up sides in the fluff to ultra-fast healing, and a more robust predator ecology is one of those. Purple worms don't have clerics to heal them, after all.
 

I have yet to see a non-combat-oriented proposal for broadening the fighter's repertoire out of combat. During combat they are fine, I don't think that's even controversial, but I see occasional wistful comments from people like yourself asking for non-combat Vancian expendable ("declarative" in EzekielRaiden's terminology) options for the fighter. Since there is no proposal, there's no way to evaluate it as sensible vs. ridiculous. I will say that if I wanted to scratch that itch for myself, I'd probably look to equipment lists a la GURPS: High Tech/Low Tech instead of to pseudo-Vancian powers. I'd let you buy grappling hooks, superior plowshares, medical kits, sextants, blasting powder, heliographs, and better horseshoes (and fantastic mounts like Hippogriffs). Somehow I doubt that's the kind of thing you're looking for, but to the extent that I see a gap in 5E it is that lack of technological toys.

I have mentioned, not in this thread, things that I think fit with the concept of the fighter (especially the fighter as athlete) that could be daily or short rest abilities. Generally, they fit into the exploration pillar. Let me give a couple of examples:

1) The distance the fighter jumps is increased by 5 feet per +1 of proficiency modifier.

2) The fighter gains an overland run speed for 1 hour per every two fighter levels.
 

I don't think combat actually becomes much more dangerous; you just increase the priority of magical healing.

I disagree with that. I think that those who want short rests removed and want a return to AD&D overnight rates also want HDs removed. That effectively halves every character's daily allotment of HPs, and that means that fights become more dangerous more quickly (or, to put it another way, it reduces the length of the adventuring day that your HPs can sustain you through).
 

In general, yes, he could. It's very easy to make that change if one wants to.

In specific, it's an up-in-the-air question. If he wants to remove short rests altogether, he'd probably have to make adjustments to the refresh-on-short-rest abilities to compensate. Also, switching over to the AD&D rules would make 5e's HDs irrelevant, so he'd have to cut those out (but that's so easy it only merits a mention for the sake of completeness).

It also wouldn't excise Second Wind and Survivor from the fighter class. Those are both martial healing abilities that he objects to. Second Wind has several easy fixes that were posited both on this forum and the WotC forum. Survivor would have to be replaced with an ability of commensurate power.

The issue can be corrected with house rules, but good luck trying to find a game as a player with a group who will use them. For this reason I was really looking forward to official options in the PHB.
 

The issue can be corrected with house rules, but good luck trying to find a game as a player with a group who will use them. For this reason I was really looking forward to official options in the PHB.

Well, naturally, as a player you are subject to the kind of game the DM wants to run (and that other players in the group want to be part of). That happens regardless of what one's preference is, and it's not restricted to just healing preferences either.

Have you considered asking a DM/group to try an adventure using different healing rates? Or perhaps even running such a game for a group to introduce them to it? You never know, they might like the idea or enjoy the experience enough to make it a consistent rule.
 

If the essence of being a fighter is "being a trained combatant" as you say, then there are no non-combat related bits. That's like asking about the non-magic-related aspects of being a trained wizard. At most you're talking about skill proficiencies, but fundamentally the non-magic-related aspects of being e.g. Mercury Boltblaster don't originate in his being a wizard at all--he has non-magic-related aspects like crazy hand-to-hand combat skills and a close relationship with the Queen of Raelna, but those things originated in his background and martial arts training, not from his training as a wizard.

You clearly have a different understanding of what it was, and even what it is, to be trained as a soldier today. Because there's a hell of a lot more to being a knight, samurai, Hunnic horse-archer, etc. than just making things dead. Even modern soldiers need to develop skills, connections, etc. that aren't directly applicable to combat, but which help make "the life of a soldier" easier, simpler, or more effective.

But what really makes the idea of expendable nonmagical resources (what you call "declarative") an abomination to many people is that Vancian mundane activity is fundamentally incoherent. Let's pick a mundane activity and pretend that it's a fighter thing. Say, spotting when someone is lying. "Liar's Scent: you can tell when someone is lying to you." In what universe would it ever make any kind of sense to say "By concentrating briefly, you can tell when someone is lying to you, once per day?" What, I lose my training at detecting hinky behavior just because I talked to a different hinky guy in the market earlier today?

Vancian mundane abilities just make no sense. 5E has a few of them (like Lucky, which is kind of like being proficient in every skill). Fortunately it doesn't have a lot.

They don't have to make no sense. You just have to be careful about how you design them. That you can demonstrate that some non-magical resources are "nonsensical," in your opinion, does not make absolutely all of them garbage. That's (part of) why I said I would need to think very carefully about the set of options for the Fighter. And, since there really are people who hate the idea of, or are not comfortable playing with, "resource-based" mechanics, a well-designed set of options should include at least two purely passive, always-on options, so that way everyone actually has some degree of choice and not a Hobson's choice.

Ok, using your definition, my first reaction here is, "Just because you personally don't like using spells doesn't mean they don't exist. So when you say there are no declarative abilities, that's not a true statement. There just aren't many that you like. Two totally different statements."

I'll let Mike Mearls provide my defense here.
2. The Fighter Draws on Training and Experience, not Magic

Fighters master mundane tactics and weapon skills. They don’t need spells or some sort of external source of magical power to succeed. Fighters do stuff that is within the limits of mundane mortals. They don’t reverse gravity or shoot beams of energy.

??? PCs have to make saves and ability checks out of combat all the time. Almost every single skill check is out of combat, and there are plenty of spells like charm person that are used out of combat. Not to mention poison saves and trap saves. There is no question that this is a declarative ability used in non-combat.

I apologize; I should have specifically spelled out that ability checks are, generally speaking, almost purely non-combat. (There are some ability checks that can occur in combat, but they're comparatively corner cases.) Rolling a skill is not a "declarative" ability though, for exactly the same reason that "rolling an attack" is not a declarative ability--they meet the definition I gave, but only in an incredibly trivial way.

You're complaining that the fighter doesn't have any declarative abilities to do out of combat, and when shown examples, you're saying they aren't fightery enough? That seems...contradictory. Of course an out of combat skill/ability/power won't seem fightery. That's because it's being used out of fights. :\

I don't believe "Fighter" means "Absolutely Everything I Do Is About Doing Violence To Something Or Someone." Why make any class whose definition precludes it from contributing to a character's competence in the things the designers consider fundamentally, "universally" important? (At least as much as anything can be "universal" in D&D.) That would be...utterly unbelievable to me.

The unquestionable bottom line is that the fighter has two choices above and beyond any other class to give them some pretty significant mechanics to use in the other two pillars. They will always have that extra bonus over any other class, and it's a clear defined feature of the class. The only thing WoTC did was instead of baking some of these things into the class directly, they gave you a choice to become even more of a combat bad ass, increase your ability scores, or to become more well rounded into non-combat pillars. If you (general you) choose not to use the relevant feats to achieve this but focus on becoming more combat orientated, that's not the fault of the class for not having non combat abilities. That's your choice.

And as stated, I think that's a :):):):):):) choice. Don't force people to choose between participating at all in some things vs. participating better in others, when ALL of those things you can participate in are explicitly defined as Fundamentally Important To The Game.
 

IMO, WotC did a terrible job of providing official options everyone needed. For example, I hate the healing/resting rules. Even the optional rules in the DMG don't give me what I'm looking for. With that said, I certainly don't consider the game to be a closed book. Of course, I'm willing to accept that my desire for old school healing/resting rules is a minority opinion. I may in fact never see an optional rule in that regard that makes me happy.

Some playstyles are just not compatible with each other. I can't say much about your playstyle, but it sounds a bit gamist with a heavy focus on miniture/grid combat.

Conceptually I like the older rules for healing and resting. They cleave closer to reality.

For ease of play I'm going with the new rules. I've hopped on the boat that gritty, realistic resting and healing rules are not necessary for a fun game. It's more a personal preference to increase verisimilitude to the highest degree I no longer feel is necessary.
 

You clearly have a different understanding of what it was, and even what it is, to be trained as a soldier today. Because there's a hell of a lot more to being a knight, samurai, Hunnic horse-archer, etc. than just making things dead. Even modern soldiers need to develop skills, connections, etc. that aren't directly applicable to combat, but which help make "the life of a soldier" easier, simpler, or more effective.

This is very true. I've always advocated for more skills for the fighter and non-combat leadership abilities as an option. I've read extensively on ancient and modern warriors. The idea they focus on weapons training over everything else is absurd. They are usually highly skilled in a variety of areas necessary to their survival. The fighting man with no brains usually ends up dead or subordinate to the fighting man with brains. D&D has never quite captured this feel for the fighting man.

Just like I didn't understand the low will save in 3E. I felt a fighter more than any other class lacking the ability to overcome magic with magical means should have had two good saves at least. A choice between a good Fort and Will or Reflex. The Ranger ended up being a better example of a soldier than a fighter in Pathfinder.


They don't have to make no sense. You just have to be careful about how you design them. That you can demonstrate that some non-magical resources are "nonsensical," in your opinion, does not make absolutely all of them garbage. That's (part of) why I said I would need to think very carefully about the set of options for the Fighter. And, since there really are people who hate the idea of, or are not comfortable playing with, "resource-based" mechanics, a well-designed set of options should include at least two purely passive, always-on options, so that way everyone actually has some degree of choice and not a Hobson's choice.

I would like any additional martial abilities to make sense. I don't mean make sense in terms of perfect application of physics, but make sense as far as verisimilitude is concerned.



I apologize; I should have specifically spelled out that ability checks are, generally speaking, almost purely non-combat. (There are some ability checks that can occur in combat, but they're comparatively corner cases.) Rolling a skill is not a "declarative" ability though, for exactly the same reason that "rolling an attack" is not a declarative ability--they meet the definition I gave, but only in an incredibly trivial way.

Battle-master has some nifty Declarative abilities. They are limited by Superiority Dice.


I don't believe "Fighter" means "Absolutely Everything I Do Is About Doing Violence To Something Or Someone." Why make any class whose definition precludes it from contributing to a character's competence in the things the designers consider fundamentally, "universally" important? (At least as much as anything can be "universal" in D&D.) That would be...utterly unbelievable to me.

It would be nice if they gave them a few non-combat abilities you can see a fighter having like Inspiring Others or non-combat medical healing. Though you can gain a few of these things with feats.

I think fighter players would enjoy a cool non-combat ability or two that boosted group performance and desirability. I'm already starting to see a little bit of the 3E "Fighters are cool for multiclass, but other classes are more fun to play up to high level" effect from 3E. I'm getting level dipping of the fighter to pick up a fighting style and heavy armor, while they level up in other classes that get more interesting abilities.
 

Personally, most of the gripes I see with fighters comes from the low amount of subclasses/martialarchetypes.

The generalist aspects of the fighter was translated too hard into the subclasses and could have been spread out a bit. By making the bonus feats be the description feature, the intent was sort of hidden.

If the 6th level feature was a Martial Archetype Feature and each archetype got a different one.
  • Champions kept the ability increase or feat
  • Battlemasters and Eldritch Knights got a minor combat and out-of-combat
  • A new 'big dumb warrior" archetype received a purely combat feature
  • A new "charismatic" warrior received a beefed up version of one of the Social feats.

It would be more plainly obvious. As is, you have to figure it out and hope the DM does as well. and that's a big part of 5th: Noticing the differences to what you are used to.
 

Remove ads

Top