So, where's Ryan's opinion?

[Ranger REG]

Are they still marked at full price?

I'm referring to FLGS, not Amazon.com :\

AFAIK, Borders STORES (not Borders.com) don't discount RPGs. You gotta have one of those Borders Reward Coupons to get the full price marked down.

 

[barsoomcore]

In the book trade, most retailers have the right to return unsold copies to the publisher in exchange for a full refund. I've always assumed this was also true in the RPG publishing industry.

 

[TerraDave]

Its not true.

 

[EditorBFG]

I'm referring to FLGS, not Amazon.com

I think Dancey is also referring to FLGS. And his point is, that their profits depend on CCGs and other collectible games, and that RPG products are only a small portion of most game stores' sales. So, the d20 boom was therefore not that bad for retailers.

 

[The Little Raven]

So, the d20 boom was therefore not that bad for retailers.

Except the companies that bought tons of d20 products because of the "d20 RPG renaissance" and are now eating the cost of those impossible-to-sell supplements. While it's true that they make a lot of money off collectible games, RPGs cost them more to stock, especially when they're harder to sell. Saying that the flood of shelf-occupying d20 products (and the multitude of companies that went under, making it impossible to get your money back) didn't harm the RPG industry and it's retail store sounds like people aren't looking at the entire picture. My FLGS seriously considered not stocking anymore RPGs that weren't made by White Wolf or Wizards because of it, and ended up having to give away tons of d20 products as "freebies" with other products.

 

[Gilwen]

Everytime I see the topic come up everyone seems to want to blame the glut of D20 products that were crappy and label the downfall of the FLGS on that glut. Everyone tends to gloss over the FLGS's responsibility for their share of the problem. Stores who blindly bought any D20 book and/or overstocked the D20 stuff probably were hurt and that's mostly their own fault. D20 was a new market anyone who blindly jumped to that market without researching it or moving in with a plan wasn't very smart. The market's not going anywhere why not play it smart and pick the books you know will move and then bring in some fringe products to support those lines. To many times did I see FLGS, especially smallers ones, stock any and everything D20. There was no reason to go over board and stock everythign you can get yoru hands on. There was nothing forcing them to bring in so many books so quickly, I mean common what happened did the RPG truck pull up and just dump the books on them out of the blue?

There's really no reason for that old product to still be in store either, there are a variety of ways that stores could move that product out, granted it might not be at a full or even any profit but if the survival of your store depends on you making a full profit on each and every item then you probably need to reevaluate your business model. Get that old crap out it is a sunk cost and take what money oyou can get and reinvest it in new stock after doing some research in the market.

Gil

 

[Ranger REG]

Meh. They see d20 title associated with D&D like they see PS3 title associated with Playstation.

But as time goes on, both retailers and distributors know better, almost to the point of not stocking up small print press products. Just the more successful now-major publishers.

 

[Cergorach]

My FLGS seriously considered not stocking anymore RPGs that weren't made by White Wolf or Wizards because of it, and ended up having to give away tons of d20 products as "freebies" with other products.

If they stocked that much material they couldn't sell, then they have an expertise problem. You don't need to order a dozen copies, one or two is more than enough for most products unless your pretty sure they'll sell (such as most WotC/WW titles). If they sell you can always reorder (most game stores order once or twice a week).

You don't run a computer store if you don't know what computers do and how you can effectively sell them, the same goes for game stores. There are far to many game stores started by game enthusiasts, they dive in deep, the problem is that a lot of them don't have much of a business sense. Then it's easier to blame a product or a market for their own failures.

 

[The Little Raven]

If they stocked that much material they couldn't sell, then they have an expertise problem. You don't need to order a dozen copies, one or two is more than enough for most products unless your pretty sure they'll sell (such as most WotC/WW titles). If they sell you can always reorder (most game stores order once or twice a week).

We're not just talking about what they normally ordered. We're talking about returns (in the second week after 3e was released, there was a huge amount of d20 returns as people realized they had purchased trash), specific orders that people never picked up after reading reviews online (I remember a few copies of Foundation collecting dust because of exactly this issue), and trade-ins for store credit as well (which this store has a long history of, because they support their gamers wanting to try new things and receive compensation for old things)... now, he could have refused returns and trade-ins in order to prevent from losing that money (since he couldn't return a single thing to the distributors), but it would have definitely had a negative effect on our local gaming community. A company shouldn't have to choose between keeping customers happy and making money... those two things should go hand-in-hand. And finally, after the urging of many long-time customers, they've now posted a clear policy of "No d20 products can be returned, except WotC D&D books."

There are far to many game stores started by game enthusiasts, they dive in deep, the problem is that a lot of them don't have much of a business sense. Then it's easier to blame a product or a market for their own failures.

The owner of this store is more business savvy than most non-gamers I know. He turned a small, hole-in-the-wall store (which he was an employee at, until he bought out the owner) into a thriving game shop, moving locations twice to larger locations and opening up a second branch. This isn't a matter of him failing to understand the market, it's more a matter of the d20 brand having been poisoned early on.

 

[Cergorach]

Returns: Don't know the policy in the US, but here you have a certain right to return items within an x amount of time. I really don't see this happening to scores of books. Even if he had a hundred books returned in two weeks, this shouldn't kill his store. He could either have a serious talk with the distributer (having sold substandard products ;-), or sold them at a heavy discount (50% off gets people to buy even crap).

Trade-ins: Here is that competency issue, you don't blindly buy up at a fixed rate, even if it pleases your customers (or you shouldn't complain if it comes back to bite you in the ass). Buy only what you can reasonably expect to sell, at a price that's way below buying from the distributer. If you already have product x collecting dust for weeks, you don't buy any more!

Impact on community: That business is not there to be used as a buffer for consumers that buy anything without looking at reviews or buying everything sight unseen nd shove the owner with the repercussions. On the other hand the owner seems to be ok with it...

A company shouldn't have to choose between keeping customers happy and making money...

This is reality, while in theory I agree with you, this just doesn't happen that often. First you make money, then you worry about keeping your customers happy. If you do it the other way around, chances are that you won't be long enough in business to be remembered by your customers.

A lot of game stores rode the Magic wave since 1993, the Pokemon wave since 1998, and Yu-gi-oh! wave post 2001. Remember those mythical stories of the hay days of WotC, when Magic was at it's pinnacle? Those were good times for games stores as well, D20 was received by a lot of folks as the next 'big' thing, so they bought more then they should, more then was financially sound. The same thing happened on the Internet, it was called the dot com bubble, business overextending. The reason a lot of stores went belly up was because they overextended themselves because they followed the hype and the hype wasn't always what it was supposed to be. Those who bet well, made a lot of money, those that didn't, lost it all. I think it's wrong to put the blame with the products and their producers, they only provided what the consumers demanded (within their capability, expertise and budget). If D20 didn't happen, I am confident that the same thing would have happened, instead of spending too much resources on RPG books, too many resources would have been spent on CCGs or mini games that came out in 2000.