So why can ANYONE use rituals?

[Lurks-no-More]

Like most non-Lizard people in this thread, I like the idea that rituals are available to anyone who has spent the time and effort to learn casting them (picked the feats).

Take a common archetype: a wise old sage, who has delved deep into ancient lore and has knowledge of things most people have never even heard of. Along the way, he has learned some rituals and incantations that are useful in his studies.

The ritual rules make this a very easy thing to do in 4e; in 3e, you'd have to make him an adept or a wizard, and both of those bring stuff with them that's quite outside the archetype.

 

[Lizard]

Like most non-Lizard people in this thread, I like the idea that rituals are available to anyone who has spent the time and effort to learn casting them (picked the feats).

You didn't bother actually reading my posts, did you?

 

[Dire Bare]

Like most non-Lizard people in this thread, I like the idea that rituals are available to anyone who has spent the time and effort to learn casting them (picked the feats).

Well then, it's clear you must be one of those narcissistic ruthless egalitarians from San Francisco who speak in racistly insulting comic-book German!!!

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm not very happy that anyone can learn and use rituals. To me, the greatest and most mysterious powers of wizards, clerics, druids and other magic users was their ritual magic, not just the spells that blow things up. Now those things have been offered to everyone. This isn't just about martial classes having rituals, it's also about wizards casting raise dead and clerics casting leomund's secret chest. It just ruins so much of the flavor that differentiated them, IMHO. Now, anyone can, with the expenditure of at most 2 feats, have access to many of the greatest powers of wizards, clerics and druids from previous editions.

For the same reasons that characters have different roles in combat, I liked how, in previous editions, different magic users had different specialites and roles outside of combat. If you needed a disease cured or a special blessing, you went to the temple (or your party cleric). If you needed your keep magically warded or something hidden away in a secret chest, you went to the wizard guild (or your party wizard). Now, anyone with the ritual casting feat and enough money (or anyone that can afford the appropriate scroll) can do any and all of these things.

I guess one can say that the power of a ritual is contained within the ritual itself. But to me, that just cheapens what magic is. Magic has always been a very difficult thing to learn and do. It wasn't just about learning incantations, ingredients, prayers or formulae, it was about learning how to harness your own personal power and mental discipline (or faith) to do amazing things. Now, all of the power of a ritual is in the tools rather than the user. And that is just not how I think magic should be.

Now, the only type of magic that wizards can truly call their own are their simplest of spells. Shooting magic missiles and lightning bolts is something only wizards can do, but anyone can learn to cast scrying, magic circle or teleport? If anything, it should be just the opposite, IMHO. Ritual magic should be harder to do than the simpler stuff. And to make it something that any old joe can pick up for at most two feats just totally wrecks how special and powerful these types of things are.

But oh well, I guess it's easy enough to house rule that only divine casters can use heal/religion rituals and only arcane casters can use arcane rituals. I just wish I didn't have to.

 

[baberg]

anyone can learn to cast scrying, magic circle or teleport?

Any class can cast scrying, magic circle, or teleport if they take multiple Feats in order to learn how to do it. For a Fighter, taking two feats at character creation means he's spent 66% of his time learning how to cast rituals instead of focusing on swordplay (unless he's a human, in which case he's spend half his time learning rituals instead of swordplay).

Why do people always ignore that?

 

[Incenjucar]

Personally, I've seen too many movies and books where archaeologists and evil business people have been using rituals to demand that only a wizard can do it.

Besides, again, multiclassing is done with feats.

If it really bugs you, make people multiclass into a spellcasting class before taking the feat to get what they really want.

 

[Derren]

Any class can cast scrying, magic circle, or teleport if they take multiple Feats in order to learn how to do it. For a Fighter, taking two feats at character creation means he's spent 66% of his time learning how to cast rituals instead of focusing on swordplay (unless he's a human, in which case he's spend half his time learning rituals instead of swordplay).

Why do people always ignore that?

Can those feats only be taken at character creation? If not then this is probably the reason.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Any class can cast scrying, magic circle, or teleport if they take multiple Feats in order to learn how to do it. For a Fighter, taking two feats at character creation means he's spent 66% of his time learning how to cast rituals instead of focusing on swordplay (unless he's a human, in which case he's spend half his time learning rituals instead of swordplay).

Why do people always ignore that?

I didn't ignore that. And he doesn't have to take those two feats at 1st level, either. He can always get them later. Also, don't ignore the fact that feats are supposed to be much less significant to character power in this edition and characters also get more of them than they did in 3e (fighters excepted, of course, but they have powers now to cover things like cleave and whirlwind attack). Two feats in this edition is alot less a cost than two feats in 3e, especially for fighters.

 

[baberg]

I didn't ignore that. And he doesn't have to take those two feats at 1st level, either. He can always get them later.

Yes he can. So instead of spending half of his upbringing studying ritual casting and arcana/religion, now he's spending two levels studying ritual casting and another two levels studying arcana/religion, bypassing all of the other feats they could be looking at. Instead of learning how to wield his weapon more efficiently he's learning how to read, understand, and utilize magic. What's wrong with that?

Two feats in this edition is alot less a cost than two feats in 3e, especially for fighters.

What does 3e have to do with anything? This is 4e. It's a different game.

 

[Cadfan]

Well then, it's clear you must be one of those narcissistic ruthless egalitarians from San Francisco who speak in racistly insulting comic-book German!!!

With ADD. You forgot the ADD. Trust me, narcissism is better with ADD. Every time I walk past a mirror, its like falling in love for the first time.