SO would Torquemada qualify for paladin?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

An important aspect of Torquemada's personality to consider is that while he did get along pretty well with the Spanish nobility he was not very popular with the church at large. I seem to recall several run ins with local clergy and the Vatican censured his inquisition. Can't name sources aside from text books off the top of my head, but I thought it interesting that the incidents weren't named in the article. I've also never heard anyone say that the Catholic church in Spain was in real danger of being Judaized before. Then all the argument over how many people were killed? I have to say that I found the article more than a little incomplete and suspect.

I don't see a way he could be lawful good, but I do try to incorporate role-playing where someone who is innately evil can consistently do good things or espouse good principles.

And any Paladin who is worth his weight will have to atone for something at some point.

Still I think to make Torquemada good would involve a drastic reworking of the context he lived in or a much better upbringing. Maybe a loving nurse could bring him to the light early in life.

The Heroes, Villains, and Monsters of Thea source book for Swashbuckling adventures has a write up of a Torquemada-esque character. They use a militant but non-magical cleric class. Lots of sense motive boosts and powers. Best part is their insistence that this character can only work if he is working for a Lawful good church and deity and the whole of the populace believes he is lawful good.

Just made me want to give a mad MC Simon Milligan "Evil!" shout out.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hey there William Ronald! Good to see you!

I just see the whole paradigm thing having such a huge influence on it. I think Moral Relativism, as my philosophy professor said, is just nonsense. At it's heart, it is self-contradictory. Fair enough, then, but as I mentioned, what if everything the Inquisition was doing and why they were doing it was true? They certainly believed it was. Of course, we, from our positions laugh, and judge them as evil--but that is because we see many of the people that were executed as being "good" and we see different motivations for the Inquisition, ranging from politics to economics, but it was also religious. Indeed, as we believe, the Inquisition was largely entirely cruel and evil. But what if what they were doing is true? Would it be "evil" then? I say that as to the paradigm at the time, is that they believed that all of it was entirely and deadly true and very real. I'm just being a twit I suppose, for asking if not merely is they did what they did because they "believed" it was true, but I'm saying what if what they were doing was because it was, in fact, *real*? That is the paradigm that the 15th century was working under. In many ways, to not do what they were doing, would have been considered *evil*. Now what would that be like?

Heh. Ah well, I think I'm rambling along on a tangent. He was an evil bastard. I imagine he was quite satisfied with himself, and made a handsome profit along the way, too. Paladin? No way. No way at all.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Celtavian]

Re

When saying that alignment is more complex, why do people not take into account that the gods would actually say something in this situation in a D and D world?

If God told Torquemada to do what he did, he could very well be lawful good. If Torquemada just believes that his god told him to do what he did, he is nuts and should be put down. He is probably lawful neutral with a mental problem.

The fact of the matter, in our own history, people did what they did often because they were prejudice or insane, which does not preclude them from being good. Its all about how they promote that prejudice.

For example, I have met racists who think certain other groups are inferior, but they are Mother Theresa to those they actually care about. That does not preclude them from having a good alignment, it just makes them prejudice. You can be good and be prejudice. Nowhere does it state that you are evil because you are prejudice.

Even many good prejudice people back in the old days of America did not engage in movements aimed at hurting the people they were prejudice against. They simply believed the propaganda they were raised on, but not the violent means of enforcing that propaganda. The people most often engaging in violent movements against other racial groups were evil people leading a bunch of neutrals against said groups to be simple. I am sure a few good zealots were caught up in the mix, but probably regretted their acts later on.

Too many people want to deny personality with alignment, but that is not the case. You can still be a good person, and be prejudice. Heck, I played a Lawful Good Paladin/Cleric of Lathander from Corymyr, and she could hardly stand Sembians. Everytime they would meet a Sembian she was wary for dishonesty and felt they would act in a dishonorable and greedy manner. She still healed them and helped them if they were hurt. She would not persecute them without cause, but she didn't like them.

Torquemada was probably a lawful neutral nutjob who felt the Jews were enemies that must be destroyed. So he rallied general anti-Jew sentiment into a violent movement that killed alot of people. And I bet he crossed the threshold of evil at some point in time during the movement by killing many people he knew to be innocent.

Get over the alignment replacing personality thing. Alignment does not replace personality.

 

[William Ronald]

Hello, SHARK!!

Glad to be back on the boards. (I had a pretty hectic week. Fortunately, things are better.)

I tend to agree with you on the issue of moral relativism. While different view points can have valid points, I do not believe all views are valid. (For example, I think we have fairly established there is no correlation between human sacrifice and crop yields.) It is very easy to find justification for any actions, if you believe that all view points are equally valid.

As for the what if scenario, I believe that there are dangers for the person pursuing the darkness. -- even with supernatural dangers. For example, I think that torture only serves to have someone confess to whatever you want -- regardless of the truth. (Read some of the materials on the witch trials.) Without divination magics, it is hard to verify the truth. (However, I would allow holy water and other objects to harm someone who is possessed or in a similar state.) Also, a person may be insane and clearly believe they are possessed. (This would probably be puzzling to the clergy conducting the investigation. Possibly they might wonder if he was a victim of evil forces. Okay, let the clergy justify a few days with the iron boot and the red hot pokers.)

Perhaps in such a world, there would be a great emphasis on getting to the truth. However, even the most vigilant hunter of evil would have to be wary of going over the line. Indeed, such hunters would have to worry about not harming the victims even further. Also, there is a danger that something like an Inquisition could spiral out of control, pulling in innocents to become victims. (Thus, any legitimate efforts to eliminate evil are compromised by greed and fanaticism. The fact that innocents are being harmed would give comfort to the forces of darkness.)

My advice for characters who have to deal with ferreting out supernatural influences: take a lot of holy water and divination spells.

As for Torquemada, a cleric maybe. I think a Torquemada-like character could serve as a warning against the dangers of fanaticism.

As for Torquemada,

 

[Tonguez]

I'm I was tending towards Lawful Neutral Cleric/Adept and only put paladin there as the 'extreme' of why he might be.

I tend to fall in with what Shark and Celtavian are saying - Torquemada is a devout adherent to his faith and truely beleives that he is doing good by 'cleanisng' his nation of heretics.

If we change Jews for Hobgoblins (after all 15th C Europe did characterise Jews as monsters) and say Torquemada drove out the Hobgoblins - then would he still be evil?

Tortue was practised (that probably not by the 'good', executions were acceptable punishment and Guilty until proven innocent is still the law in some countries is it not?

 

[herald]

He is definatly Lawful Evil.

He had to have known the situation that the Spanish Government had gotten itself into. It had borrowed heavely from Jewish Moneylenders sice Ursery was outlawed by the church. This has always been a HUGE bone of contention between these groups at this time. Money lending gave the Jews a political leg to stand on that the church didn't want them to have. before long diatribes against Jews started. Anti-semetic writings started to ciruculate even before the Jews were rounded up.

Before the events in Spain, the inqusition was created to find the truth in events that were unexplainable. They went from detectives to untouchables in a quick motion, when the King of Spain decided that he would no longer wanted to pay his debts and gave the chuch carte blanche to drive the heathen from his shores.

Torquemada drove individuals to confess to crimes that they didn't commit. People didn't just come up witht thier crimes off the top of thier heads, they were lead into it by thier torcherers. people were dismembered, ther genatals were flayed, tounges severed. Some were drowned.

This is not war this is genocide.

Even amongst the his own inquisitors, Torquemada is considered a zelot, a man who cannot be trusted, and is feared.

Torquemada is burning right now, undoubtablely getting it as good as he got it.

 

[Tonguez]

He is definatly Lawful Evil.

He had to have known the situation that the Spanish Government had gotten itself into. It had borrowed heavely from Jewish Moneylenders sice Ursery was outlawed by the church. This has always been a HUGE bone of contention between these groups at this time. Money lending gave the Jews a political leg to stand on that the church didn't want them to have. before long diatribes against Jews started. Anti-semetic writings started to ciruculate even before the Jews were rounded up.

Before the events in Spain, the inqusition was created to find the truth in events that were unexplainable. They went from detectives to untouchables in a quick motion, when the King of Spain decided that he would no longer wanted to pay his debts and gave the chuch carte blanche to drive the heathen from his shores.

Torquemada drove individuals to confess to crimes that they didn't commit. People didn't just come up witht thier crimes off the top of thier heads, they were lead into it by thier torcherers. people were dismembered, ther genatals were flayed, tounges severed. Some were drowned.

This is not war this is genocide.

Even amongst the his own inquisitors, Torquemada is considered a zelot, a man who cannot be trusted, and is feared.

Torquemada is burning right now, undoubtablely getting it as good as he got it.

Hm I wonder if we could combine the two opinions and actually build an interesting character one that starts LN Righteous Man of his Faith but who's fanaticism and power soon takes into the realm of Self Righteous (and LE) Destroyer. Did he beleive he was the Righteous Man doing Gods work? Did he become machivallean and turned a deaf ear because he felt justified? Ws he insane?

Afterall Torquemada was not THE Torturer he simply allowed it to flourish. He was given unlimited powers by both the King and the Pope and with it took an ineffective group of dodderels and by firmly esconcing himself as the be-all and end-all of the Inquisition turned it into one of the most feared and vilified players in medieval history.

Now if he did start LN and then turned LE - where should I have the PCs 'encounter' him - at the start or end of his reign or somewhere in between...

 

[herald]

You could go the route of absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you going to build a fictional character based on this individual I would start like this.

This man is certainly biased against a certain race to the point of bigotry. He never crosses the line, but he lets his feelings known. And he uses church doctrine to back himself up.

This individual is looking to create a mark upon the world. He is politically savvy and more than willing to do some dirty work to get ahead. When I say "dirty work", I mean work that no one else wants, it doesn't have to be evil or even underhanded, but it might, and he is the man to make it happen. He does this he states because by furthering himself, he furthers he views on what faith will be, not necessarily what "Mother Church's" views are. And why shouln't he, he thinks to himself, isn't that what all who have come before me have done. Surely I am doing God's Will since he doesn't strike me down. I'm supported by the "Divine Right of Kings" and "the Infallibility of the Church". There is no opiate stronger than the power that he feels courses through his body.

And since he cannot be questioned, his witch hunt cannot be stopped. He has always had ego problems. He has always been able to compensate for it though. He is no raving lunitic, no foaming at the mouth overgrown child. He is more like Cardinal Richleiu than Hitler. He doesn't have to strike out at his detracters. Church Law will bring those people into line.

And the longer it goes, the more he gets used to the power. What would he do to make sure that he retains his power. How far must the dragnet go? Or will his peers have to find ways to stop him, before everything is tainted.

 

[Leopold]

I am playing a cleric of Hextor as an NPC and this would be something he would do. He's LE to a T which to me lends creedence that he will get the job done, no matter what the costs, to expengunge and destroy the enemies of his faith in accordance with the doctrine of his god following them strictly and piously.

I dislike how people automatically assume evil=insane. Evil is not insane, evil is not mad. You can have crazy nutjobs of goodness that wander around too but more people assume evil=crazy.

LE is not fanatical and stupid just like LG does not always have to be the shining knight of camelot on the gleaming white horse.

LE is willing to get the job done, no matter what it takes and what lives or dies matters not in the grand scheme of things as long as justice, law, and order are maintained in society/battle/party/etc. . Moral justification or laws based on mercy or purity matter not to those guys only the sheer will of their God and the rules by which they decree upon the followers who dish it out to the people matter. Laws of man are decreed by god which are then passed down to man. Man should rule man by god's laws but only by man and not god.


Perhaps the Aztecs might be a good example of LE society at large as they had human sacrifice, ritualistic slaughter and a martial society but were generally well governed and very well discliplined and maintained.

 

[Leopold]

And since he cannot be questioned, his witch hunt cannot be stopped. He has always had ego problems. He has always been able to compensate for it though. He is no raving lunitic, no foaming at the mouth overgrown child. He is more like Cardinal Richleiu than Hitler. He doesn't have to strike out at his detracters. Church Law will bring those people into line.

And the longer it goes, the more he gets used to the power. What would he do to make sure that he retains his power. How far must the dragnet go? Or will his peers have to find ways to stop him, before everything is tainted.

there is a higher power in the church he must answer to. The pope, the cardinals, the bishops, there are ranks within ranks within ranks of the clergy. Somehow this guy might be a regional power and not a global power. If a higher ranking member tells him what he is doing wrong and he hears of it, he can either keep on trekking flying in the face of those that doesn't hear the true 'message' or keeping with the regimental structure within the church plead for what he is doing is right but ultimately his superiors within the church tell him to mend his ways or stop.

If they tell him to stop and he continues he is flying in the face of his superiors which is not the most Lawful thing to do. Remeber higher ranking clergy can order lesser members around much like a beaurocracy in modern day does. Rogue pariahs would be common but if he devoted to his church and his god and his church orders him to stop he can and will not suffer any consequences as he obeying the laws of a higher ranking member of his faith which is in higher standing with his god. If he spouts off about talking to his god personally and it's a Lawful type church he can be tried for heresay like those he is persecuting if he fails to comply.


If you want real good LN/E Inquisitors I sugges the Dan Abnett Series of Eisenhorn in the Warhammer 40k universe. You will blow through them like nothing and get a true understanding on the mind of a inquisitor works and how to root out chaos and corruption at every turn and purge the taint of the warp from the hearts and minds of men with whatever means neccessary.