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So you enter the "Magic Shoppe", and inside you see...what ?

Mishihari Lord

First Post
In my worlds there are magic shops, but they aren't places to go grab a +4 longsword. In about half of the very major cities, a single shop may be found. The items tend to be unique and frequently creeping. I once introduced one to a player by telling him that as he walked in, a shrunken head hanging by its hair from a nail on the wall opened its eyes and winked at him before quickly closing them and becoming quiescent. I have lots of fun making stuff up off the top of my head. Frex, a wall mirror with a demon imprisoned within. It will happily Legend Lore for you, but it only know about the Abyss, and will only perform if offered the soul of at least a small mammal.
 

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Zhaleskra

Adventurer
The only game I have where I'd actually consider Magic Shoppes appropriate is World Tree, where they are an assumed part of the world. Everyone knows about them. They sell boxed spells for you to graft: a wooden box with a spark of magic to be examined and grafted to your magerium. Parents buy their kids spells as birthday presents. A weapon shop might have a magic weapon of moderate power. You probably need to find, broker, or make more powerful magic weapons and armor yourself. Wares would be kept on wooden shelves because the world is made of wood, while metal is certainly possible, nearly every bit of it has to be created with magic. As to how to rob one? Hope the owner doesn't have an alarm spell that can be triggered. Most common magic shops will probably only carry spells up to complexity 15, 20 if you're lucky (equivalent to 2nd and 3rd level spells in pre-4e D&D), and even then they're more likely to be householdy spells, simple buffs, or defensive.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The only game I have where I'd actually consider Magic Shoppes appropriate is World Tree, where they are an assumed part of the world.

I find this a curious statement. What is inappropriate about assuming magic items follow the rules of econimics, namely, that people will try to buy and sell them?
 

Zhaleskra

Adventurer
I find this a curious statement. What is inappropriate about assuming magic items follow the rules of econimics, namely, that people will try to buy and sell them?

The assumption that a setting has an economy that would support them. More to the point: the player's assumption that the magic store has what he wants to buy and that the store owner is willing to part with it for the exact rulebook listed price, or from the opposite side, that the seller wants what the character has and has the money to pay for it, and is going with the rulebook given price. So the short version: the player assuming because the rules give an item a price, that he has a chance of getting it because "the book says so".
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
I find this a curious statement. What is inappropriate about assuming magic items follow the rules of econimics, namely, that people will try to buy and sell them?

If you're playing to genre, certain setting make a magic shop just weird. You didn't see Gandalf going down to the local WalMart for Sting.

Also, following the implications of having lots of D&D magic in a world to its logical conclusion makes for some very odd worlds. Odd as in not represented in literature. (Except maybe that Brust series) The problem with this is that my intuition can no longer tell me how cause and effect work in the world, which makes the game less fun.

I usually handle this by saying that the demand for magic is much, much greater than the supply. This explains both why there aren't magic shops (rich people get the stuff and keep it for the most part) and the crazy price for magic items (economics).
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Well, I never said that magic shops would be common, I just questioned the concept of "inappropriateness".

Economics dictates that if a good is a normal good- as in, pretty much anything except a Giffen good- there will be a market for it unless that market is artificially restricted.

For me, official price lists are average prices- any good may be unavailable, discounted, or inflated- mundane or magical. Just because something exists doesn't mean its available...or affordable. And several others in our group run their games likewise.

Why didn't Gandalf go to a magic shop? Lots of reasons- time pressures would be a major one.

Equally important is that ME is notably much lower magic than a typical D&D world- any magic store is going to be as rare as a Sotheby's Auction House. Which only means rare, not nonexistent. And VERY pricey. Possibly even using the same business model- instead of paying retail, would-be purchasers would have to win an auction...

And how much money did Gandalf have?

And since Sotheby's auctions aren't a daily occurrence, that just amplifies the time issue.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I find this a curious statement. What is inappropriate about assuming magic items follow the rules of econimics, namely, that people will try to buy and sell them?

I don't know that it is 'inappropriate', as you could certainly create a setting where it would be appropriate.

But there is nothing that forces magic items to follow the same economic rules that govern onions or bricks.

a) Magic in most settings isn't technology. This most easily scene by trying to create a wizard analogue in a science fiction setting without resorting to magic in the form of psychics, psionic, and so forth. Anyone with small training can use a gun or guided missile. It's less obvious that wands, spellbooks, crystal balls, and so forth are transferable and in some settings they explicitly are not.

b) At the least, magic requires highly specialized knowledge to even appraise. You could look at most pieces of technology and have some idea what it was supposed to do, presuming it wasn't several tech levels beyond you. But magic items generally can do anything and have very few clues inherent to them as to what that anything is. Magic makes the art of the con so easy, and many stories about magic are premised on that, that I imagine most people would be afraid to buy anything magical unless they were highly skilled in the magical art themselves.

c) In general, magic is not amendable to mass production techniques. In general, magic is scarce compared to say televisions or sneakers (and if it isn't, then it's likely magic as technology). In practice, for most people magic is irreplaceable. If they have magic at all, it's as a heirloom which is not only useful beyond anything else they might own, but which has significance of heritage and purpose above and beyond its monetary worth. Aragorn doesn't sell the shards of Narsil, not just because they will be useful to him, but because they are in some sense who defines him. Just as the PC's will likely sacrifice everything material they have but last off all their irreplaceable magic items, I imagine most NPCs - who have been attached to their items for far longer - will give up everything before selling their items. The items are not merely useful now, but as the foundation for future wealth and restoration of position, and as a reminder of where they are. To give them up is to admit you are a nobody.

d) In general, magic is weaponized. Weapons aren't generally subject to the same economic considerations as other commodities. You might, in some nations, be able to purchase a simple weapon for self-defense. But in pretty much all nations above the level of failed states, some weapons are not on the open market. There are no stores you can walk in to buy Hellfires, Claymores, and Abrams tanks. Most nations probably would object to plains to purchase and import 40 T-80 main battle tanks for private use. It's strange enough that D&D citizens regardless of rank or station seem to be perfectly free to purchase plate, warhorses, swords and lances. That they being less than nation states could purchase arbitrary magic items outside of lawless lands stretches my credulity.

I tend to do a hybrid based on demographic assumptions. Assuming that NPCs almost never reach about 5th level at the pinnacle of their careers, but that levels between 1st and 5th are fairly common, there is in the campaign a background level of magic as technology in magic that is accessible to low level characters. And to a large extent, society is built around that assumption that magic is in some sense normal. But there is a sharp divide between say a potion, which ordinary craftsman can create, and the sorts of magic items that can only be crafted by rare and semi-legendary figures. These are seen as belonging to greater mysteries and greater arts. You might easily go into a market and buy or sell a 'healing elixir to knit the flesh', but there exists no ordinary market for 'Excalibur'.
 

Crothian

First Post
The assumption that a setting has an economy that would support them. More to the point: the player's assumption that the magic store has what he wants to buy and that the store owner is willing to part with it for the exact rulebook listed price, or from the opposite side, that the seller wants what the character has and has the money to pay for it, and is going with the rulebook given price. So the short version: the player assuming because the rules give an item a price, that he has a chance of getting it because "the book says so".

Sounds like a player problem.

Shops in my world vary heavily. Churches are a good place to buy healing potions and wands and other more clerical items. Wizards are a good place to buy those kind of scrolls and wizard items. In very large cities in secure parts of town there might be a shop or two that has a random selection. Once the inventory is determined though it doesn't change very often because as people have noted there just are not a lot of people that can afford high priced items. Some items will be sold under the DMG cost and some will be sold much higher. Some items will never be sold.

The best way is usually to find an artificer guild as they have a good inventory but they do have the habit of destroying magical items to make new ones. It also helps explain why for a world that has thousands of years of history where people have made swords +1 that there are millions of them floating around.
 

Zhaleskra

Adventurer
Sounds like a player problem.

And yet, it's never occurred in actual play in a game I've been playing or running. On the other hand, there are several posters here who give me the impression they'd throw a temper tantrum if they couldn't get magic item X at the rulebook's list price, or that it didn't happen to be available in the town they're in.

Celebrim raises an interesting point with MagiTek, as that is a very common use of magic on the World Tree. It's your semi-standard fantasy mix of technology, yet they have printing presses, and indoor plumbing.
 

diaglo

Adventurer
And yet, it's never occurred in actual play in a game I've been playing or running. On the other hand, there are several posters here who give me the impression they'd throw a temper tantrum if they couldn't get magic item X at the rulebook's list price, or that it didn't happen to be available in the town they're in.

Celebrim raises an interesting point with MagiTek, as that is a very common use of magic on the World Tree. It's your semi-standard fantasy mix of technology, yet they have printing presses, and indoor plumbing.

yes, i have gamed with players like this as a player.
temper tantrums.
picking up their stuff and leaving the table.
 

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