So you enter the "Magic Shoppe", and inside you see...what ?

[SkidAce]

Besides...where do casters get their material components but from those who specialize in the handling of magic?

Harvest them themselves? Yes I know* (grin).

---



*Some clever lad will realize that he can gather those shrooms and sell them to the wizards...etc etc..

 

[Jhaelen]

As in with a sign like "Ye Olde Relic Shoppe"? Probably not in the West, no. But there were merchants noted for selling relics. Since it was a practice which was illegal at certain points in time, some went "underground."

The reason? Relics were big business. Having a relic in your community was akin to having a valuable natural resource or modern-day tourist attraction. From the Wiki on Relics:

Okay, fair enough.
I still don't understand why the creators of magic items don't take measures against them being 'tradable'. In contrast to the 'creators' of relics, they have some control over this.
It's even supported by the rules (well in D&D 3e at least) and it makes sense: you can ask for more money when magic-items have to be custom-made for a particular user _and_ it's in the best interest of the buyer - unless it's supposed to be used to equip an army or something. Although, I'd argue in the latter case it's likely low-powered magic items which can be easily mass-produced and aren't that expensive to begin with.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Okay, fair enough.
I still don't understand why the creators of magic items don't take measures against them being 'tradable'. In contrast to the 'creators' of relics, they have some control over this.
It's even supported by the rules (well in D&D 3e at least) and it makes sense: you can ask for more money when magic-items have to be custom-made for a particular user _and_ it's in the best interest of the buyer - unless it's supposed to be used to equip an army or something. Although, I'd argue in the latter case it's likely low-powered magic items which can be easily mass-produced and aren't that expensive to begin with.

That's a different issue, and I agree that this could happen. But even if it did happen, it would be the exception, not the rule. Economically speaking, if you make something suitable only to a smaller group or individual, you're giving them the power to dictate price after the fact. You as the seller are creating a monopsony for the product, which means that if you don't get paid up front, you're screwing yourself.

What do I mean? Just look at RW transactions.

I design jewelry and I have custom-made guitars, etc. If that custom work doesn't get paid for substantially before the work is completed, the buyer may opt to renegotiate the price. If the maker is unhappy with that, he can decide not to deliver the product, yes, but then he's invested time and energy in a project for minimal compensation with little hope of being able to recoup payment from anyone else. Now, in most RW cases, you can find another buyer, but it ain't always the case.

Mike Tyson, in his heyday, ordered a custom-built Ferrarri. The thing was hideous. He sold it shortly after buying it, and it went for @1/10th what he paid. Now, imagine if he had refused to pay for it in the first place...

This even works with mass-produced custom work: the big 3 American automakers were infamous for negotiating bulk-rate discounts for the parts that went into their cars. Usually, they'd order in such vast numbers that it would be 80-100% of the parts makers' production capacity. Some makers would even have to invest in specialized machinery or additional physical plant. Nothing inherently wrong with any of that.

But since those parts typically didn't fit anything but the cars of one particular maker, that caused problems for the makers. The automakers would take delivery of the parts...then wouldn't pay on time. As the makers' bills came due, they felt the squeeze. The automakers would then offer to pay a lesser sum- sometimes in cash- to settle their overdue payment...at a discount, of course. So, suddenly, the parts maker who may have contracted with them in such a way that he made a 15% profit might find his ACTUAL profit to be around 3%.

And forget about withholding the parts- do that, and they'd simply get the parts elsewhere. Meanwhile, with a stockpile of inventory he can't sell, and specialized machinery, the parts maker slowly goes out of business.

Back to the fantasy realm...

SOME stuff really should be more difficult to sell, but it will never happen because it would change the game, and not for the more fun. High-end armors like plate were custom-made, fitted to their wearers. Unless you're very similar in size to that person, it just won't fit without taking it to an armored for resizing. Logically, it follows that masterwork armor- and thus, magic armor- of the same kind would likewise be fitted. So the odds that someone- even if they're the right species- would fit that +3 plate armor found in the dungeon are very slim.

But most GMs- myself included- just handwave issues like that away.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Where are you getting this "most" from? It's an extremely dangerous qualifier. Handwaving caused about 98% of what I think was bad for D&D, particularly granting PrCs by handwaving the RP requirements.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Where are you getting this "most" from? It's an extremely dangerous qualifier. Handwaving caused about 98% of what I think was bad for D&D, particularly granting PrCs by handwaving the RP requirements.

Fair point. I should have said most of the GMs I've played under since 1977, plus most of those I've talked to in the forums.

 

[Isida Kep'Tukari]

Something that's recently happened in my campaign. It's not a magic shop, not yet, but it's going to be before the campaign is out.

Due to circumstances, the PCs who own the shop have some water elementals that hang out there. To prevent them from sitting in the wash basin or (heavens forfend) the water closet, the PCs gave the water elementals a "ladder" of small, open-topped water barrels up and down the shelves. The water elementals find this very fun, and jump from barrel to barrel gleefully.

This has the effect of having the Bellagio's dancing waters inside the shop (albeit on a smaller scale).

And lemme tell you, it's a huge draw for the business.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Continuing to use World Tree, the average magic shop is mostly going to have Cplx. 5 and 10 spells, and most of those are simple buffs, householdy things, and simple protection. This is because the spell seller's main customers are the commoners, it's easier to transcribe simpler spells, the majority of his stock is going to be self-transcribed, and commoners generally don't need more complex spells on a daily basis. He probably also has a selection of higher complexity spells available as well, but anything higher than 25 probably isn't on the shelf.

The local guard is where you buy more specialized attack, buff, and defense spells, and most magic weapons. Even then, their stock is going to be limited to what's useful for guarding a city-state. If you want a Serpent Rapier, and can afford it, go to the local weapon shop: they're that common. Target Master's Sword? Check with the guard, or a knighthood. You might have a tougher time with the knights though. Smith's Guild might have something to say about it too.

Magic Academies will sell spells as well, mostly of an academic nature or related to the school's reputation in some way.

World Tree hates +whatever items, magic items usually have to do something more interesting than just add a numeric bonus. That's not to say they don't exist: they do, they're just rare.

I get it though, some people like things done behind the scenes. My preference is to play it out, and I'll make that known to potential players. Heck, I like acting during play, though certain venues do not compliment it.

 

[Grogg of the North]

- How "ye olde magic shoppes" operate in your campaigns ?

It varies from campaign to campaign. Sometimes the magic shop is run by a wizard looking to make some extra cash so he can continue with his experiments. Other times they're glorified pawn shops where retired adventurers sell their old junk and buy stuff off new adventurers. And sometimes they're run by wizard academies where if a student wants to pass their practical exam for item creation, they have to wait for an adventurer to order something. One thing that I run consistently is if the players want it NOW and can't wait, they'll expedite the item for an additional 10% and have it done in a day. Because magic. One thing I've taken from the forums here is to have the shoppes contract out to a Kikki like service. If you leave them some way to identify and find you, they'll deliver the item to you.

- How interested people learn about them ?

As a DM, I've had players more interested in the NPCs running them than the shop itself. As a player I like digging into the NPCs history if I can. It never hurts to be friends with the shop keep.

- What meets your eye inside such places ?

A beautifully crafted figurine of a fairy. She floats and rotates above a small pedestal carved to look like a forest clearing. Her wings are made of crystal and her arms are stretched upward towards a small ball, crafted from a single flawless gem, which hovers just out of her reach. Her hair and dress seem to blow by some unseen breeze.

- Are the wares kept on wooden shelves or maybe suspended magically in midair ?

Behind counters. You can touch if you're interested in buying.

- How do you steal things from such store and what measures owners take to prevent theft ?

It's oddly never come up in a game. Most people assume that if the person is selling this stuff then they're pretty powerful. I've had it where shop keeps also pay off the local thieves guild to ensure there is no unauthorized theft.

 

[Celebrim]

There are many things in this world that are exceedingly rare or unique, whose existence at one time or another was either thought legend or lie, and in times far preceding the existence of the information gathering tools that exist now.

None of which is a counterpart to a magic item. Being exceedingly rare or unique is a common trait, and indeed things with only those traits would obey normal supply and demand.

For all of human history, in any culture you can examine, trade in things humans THOUGHT were magic or otherwise supernatural- potions, talismans, artifacts of the divine, holy relics, etc.- has occurred. That magic may not actually exist is immaterial-

Entirely wrong. The actual non-existence of magic is the most salient fact in the real world beliefs about magic. The actual non-existence of magic shaped everything that people believed about magic and how they behaved toward it, regardless of whether they actually believed in it. The real world being exactly like it was, but also containing magic, is a fantasy that can only occur in stories regardless of whether or not you believe in those stories. Just as the existence of Superheroes would profoundly alter society so that the comic books world of being almost exactly like the real world but with Superheroes can't exist outside of a comic, so the sort of magic people believed in could only exists in the stories people told themselves. The people in the real world believed that they lived in a world of magic, but since magic wasn't exactly an everyday experience, believed that magic was rare, that it required special people to perform it, or that it was almost non-existent here but that they'd heard reliable reports that it was prevalent elsewhere. Dragons always lived in the unknown spaces of the map.

One of the most important aspects of a running fantasy RPG is dealing with trying to create verisimilitude to stories about magic created in a world were magic didn't exist (or expectations of same) within a world were it is actually available (or is expected to be). The same could be said of a Supers game. You have to be careful to construct the setting in such a way that you don't break the box even though what is in the box isn't what created the narrative it tries to create.

the purchasers (and sometimes the sellers) entered into transactions with the belief in the reality of magic or the supernatural, and that shaped their decisions as actors within RW markets. People made decisions to spend their money on a sacred ritual instead of fertilizer, on love potions instead of hygiene products, on sacred talismans instead of body armor.

Absolutely. But for example you mention the relic trade, where you could produce and trade fakes as commodities - enough splinters of the true cross to shingle a barn, for example. But supply isn't the overwhelming problem here. Real relics wouldn't have been commodities for reasons that don't just depend on their supply. The structure of the trade is entirely based on the fact that the fakes were commodities. Real relics wouldn't have obeyed normal rules of supply and demand. The fakes could because they could be manufactured, priced, and parted with. There might be no economic difference between buying a magic sword and buying a sword that you only think is magical, but there are real differences when one is actually magical.

The reason why "Its magic" is sufficient to explain why a cloak can make one fly like a bat is that the maker made it so, using the supernatural physics of the world. But what maker decides to create items that do not follow the rules of economics?

For example, a maker who decides to create an item which can never be used against him, and so makes it so that the item works only for himself (and perhaps curses anyone else). Ironically, in many magical creation systems, such a restriction reduces the cost of creating the item (which creates the problem, why don't the vast majority of items have this restriction?). In a sense, the example item does obey the rules of economics, in that the demand for this item is now effectively zero to anyone but its supplier. But in the sense you mean it, that is that magic items are commodities and so they must behave like normal goods, then no, it doesn't obey the rules of economics.

Despite the fact that they weren't magic items, the relic trade in some senses actually proves my point, because the more people actually took the relics seriously the less like commodities that they actually behaved. The relic trade was dominated by sellers producing in the middle east that did not believe the relics were real or even if real were in any way magical, and buyers from Europe unable to evaluate the sacredness of what they bought (and in some cases not caring). But once the relics made their way back to Europe, normal economics is largely suspended. On what price can you place the hand of the divine? Once you had it, was it irreligious to actually part with it? The relic trade was dominated in Europe by the lack of trade. Once in Europe they were no longer for sale. They were priceless artifacts capable of irreplaceable good. Once acquired from the heathens, it was considered disrespectful to purchase one or sell one. They could only be preserved and venerated. The more seriously the relic was taken, the less likely a price was assigned to it. In fact, any attempt to actually sell a relic by a town or church was met with complete disbelief to the point of disinterest. If a town attempted to sell a relic, the presumption of all buyers was that either the town had discovered the relic was false or else that something had happened to it to defile it and remove its powers. No one believed anyone would willingly part with something actually sacred and puissant since if it remained sacred and puissant surely it could supply abundantly whatever need it was that you wanted to fill by selling it. Once recognized as a relic in Europe, the item was removed from normal economics because its price was effectively infinite (and thus its demand effectively zero). The closest they came to being normal goods was as positional goods - if the price was less than infinite, then it was presumed the actual value was zero. If it was for sale, it wasn't a relic. Only heathens would actually sale an item.

Ironically, this meant that what comparatively little post-purchase relic trade existed in Europe was based on theft.

Of course, this itself was based on the fact that the magic wasn't real, since if it was real, then presumably no one would dare attempt to steal one either for fear of divine retribution. The fact that theft became popular was also itself based on the fact that the theurgy didn't really work regardless of whether the thieves believed it was. Only the combination of belief and lack of reality explains the economics.

If the magic had actually been real and effective and demonstrably so, these factors wouldn't merely informed trade in the items, they would have absolutely governed it. There would have been only one foreskin of Christ, or jar of Mary's Milk, (or pick your favorite superstition), and it wouldn't have had a buyer, because though everyone would have wanted it, no one would have dared transfer it for cash, and it wouldn't have had a seller because the item would have been priceless, irreplaceable, and imposed an obligation on its owner.

And that is to not get into the fact that to a certain extent the belief in the thing can be a commodity is a prerequisite for something behaving like a commodity.

 

[WayneLigon]

Sometimes I'll have 'magic shops', but most times they will be broken out like this:
Alchemists, who sell the stuff you can make with Craft: Alchemy
Apothecaries, who will sell some common potions and some alchemical items (almost always curative ones), as well as mundane materials
Arcanists, who sell common and uncommon material components, and who can get their hands on a few rare materials now and again.
Artificers, mage-crafters who have one or more of the item crafting feats. Usually you go to one of these guys on a custom work basis. They keep a few examples of their work around, but in general their reputation is what you're going by.

Thieves are always a problem, of course. Low-end items are not usually sought after since the thief almost always steals it for his own use instead of to sell it. If he does sell it, eventually word may make it back to the crafter ("Hey, Makim, I had a guy try to sell me one of your magical daggers today, you want I should have him followed?"). If a few places get hit in a short period of time, they assume some kid is trying to make a name for himself as 'the magical weapon bandit', and they may pool some money together to have the Thieves Guild take care of him, or to hire one of their brethren to kill him via magic. First maybe something like Dream (To the person who stole shortsword marked with this maker's mark: Return what You Have Stolen or We Will Kill You) and eventually lead to being torn apart in the town square by an Invisible Stalker or some other horrible otherplanar thing.