Social BBEGs - how to run them?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This is a question that's bothered me for a while - how do you run a powerful social BBEG?

Virtually every BBEG I see in a game is a spellcaster or high-level fighter who kicks butt. They're different from other spellcasters because they're researching some new, world-destroying spell and/or have some social skills, too.

I want to use a real-life person as a character example. His name was Cao Cao, and he lived in AD ~200 China. In DnD terms he would probably be a Aristrocrat/Marshall with a few levels of fighter (he didn't fight unless he had to) and a good Int and Cha with no magic items. (This means no rods of beguiling, magically enslaved bodyguards or what not, please.) In D20 Modern terms he's probably Smart/Charismatic/Soldier.

At that time, the central government was falling apart, and some of the peasants were revolting. Too weak to stop the revolt, the government had to call upon it's nobles (let's start calling them warlords, shall we?) to stop it. These warlords ended up more popular than the government, since they proved they could actually get things done.

Many minor warlords, such as Cao Cao, participated. He gathered some of his former retainers and family members, plus charmed a really rich guy into hiring mercenaries, to help him out. He also participated in a revolt against a Prime Minister, but the revolt failed due to ... well ... stupidity.

Cao Cao became a provincial "inspector" (basically a governor) through diplomacy. Another governor had gotten killed fighting more angry peasants, and some of Cao Cao's friends lived in that province. They convinced the remaining provincial leaders to make Cao Cao their leader so he could fight the peasants. What a feat! There's no way of modelling something like that in-game, but I suppose making a really good Diplomacy check (with aid another from your friends, who buttered the council up ahead of time) followed by a favor could do it.

As provincial leader, Cao Cao now had a staff. He started choosing some of the most competent members as his minions. (The Leadership feat is not appropriate for covering these minions.) Many of these minions actually came to him because he was smarter than their previous leaders. (He lost his first battle against the peasants due to a colossal mistake. Oops. Not a good time to fail to impress your new allies.)

As Cao Cao gained in power, he gathered around himself a large number of advisors and warriors. Some of his advisors were civil, some military, and a couple were both. As for his warriors, a couple acted as bodyguards (they were there for their ability to kick butt only, not for their ability to lead armies) and only led armies when Cao Cao was desperate, or wanted to win a battle of champions. Some were reasonably competent leaders. Five of them were his Tiger Generals, high-level characters who certainly weren't using his Leadership feat minions. In order to be a Tiger General, you had to be a pretty good fighter, a very good military leader and you had to be smart enough to independently lead an army. (They varied in terms of skill, however, with some being really good at fighting and some being just mediocre at it.) Independence was very important since Cao Cao could not be everywhere at once and could easily have to face five angry armies simultaneously.

Cao Cao gained these minions through conquest, bribery, diplomacy, and the stupidity of his enemies.

I call him a BBEG, not because of his greatly overblown actions in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but because he was willing to destroy two cities in Xu Zhou plus massacre it's inhabitants just to break the morale of the weak army he was facing.

Has anyone run a DnD campaign where the BBEG was a bit like this?

Suppose you were running a D20 Modern campaign, and instead of a warlord, the BBEG was an evil businessman or a gangster. How do you determine minion levels compared to the BBEG level? Is the BBEG always the highest level character there? What if the BBEG needs an accountant, but he can't find one who is competent enough and loyal? Do you just say they're loyal (like it's a movie) or make one disloyal but too weak to stop working for the BBEG (like... in a movie, I guess)?

 

[Piratecat]

I've used quite a few bad guys like this. For instance, in Eversink Lord Griggan Clearwater is a mid-level aristocrat matching wits against very high level PCs.

The secret is to start by saying "The heroes can kill this guy without breaking a sweat." Say it out loud - it's cathartic. In fact, when I'm making a social bad guy I usually start by envisioning him as a 1st level aristocrat, just so there's no doubt in my mind that he's physically weak. Then I ask myself: how can I make it so that if the PCs kill him, the repercussions are worse than their satisfaction over his death?

That's the real trick. Set things up so that no matter how loathsome he is, he's better off alive than he is dead, because he's better than the alternative. In Eversink, I did it by making Griggan the head of a Great House, and thus so important politically that even though no one liked him the whole wrath of the city would be unleashed on his murderer; none of the other Lords want a precedent set that it's okay to kill them, of course. In the Adventure! game I ran this last weekend, the bad guy happened to also fund orphanages, university scholarships and lots of humanitarian research. Sure, it was to improve his public image, but it made people love him in a way that the PCs never could.

Once I set up his social structure, I people it with subordinates who are physically MUCH tougher than their boss is. This is important, because it's fun for the PCs to be able to beat people up, and if they can smack around the lackies they're more likely to leave the bbeg alive. It also means that the bad guy has lots of different types of challenges to throw at the PCs when trying to thwart them.

One thing is important; you may want to let the group KNOW that their enemy is physically weak. That stops the "I didn't think he'd die after one sword thrust!" type of mistake. It's also fun for a rat bastardy DM to hear one PC say "Let's just kill him!", and five others say "We can't, because. . . "

Hope that's some help.

 

[JoeGKushner]

TO a point, I agree with Piratecat.

On the other hand, D&D is not history. Not even close.

When nobility and adventurers clash, unless the nobility is firmly entrentched and the players have no allies of any sort, the nobility will probably wind up getting their noses bloody and have to spend quite a bit of gold to either equalize things or make things right with the players.

Berserk, an anime and a manga, is a good example of this. "Why that little upstart. I'll just hire and assassin to kill him." One failed assassination latter, that noble is dead. "Why, he killed my lover. I'll just poison him!" One failed poisoning latter, queen and cabnet members die in mysterious fire.

 

[azmodean]

Here's an important thing to remember, the leadership feat is not the only way to get people to do what you tell them to. Otherwise you could not have armies or pilitical structures of any kind. All of the followers you mention Cao Cao having are paid to do their jobs. The leadership feat represents someone so incredibly charismatic that people just drop what they are doing and follow the leader. It has it's limits though, mostly in the number of people who will follow you.

If you can talk people into working for you (diplomacy) then they will work for you (as long as you keep paying them). PC types can do this too, but a "typical" party of individualists isn't going to bother hiring a bunch of people who will just get in the way.

Also, given a position of power within an organization, you don't even hae to pay your underlings from your own money. You can direct the funds of the organization toward hiring the people you need to get your job done. (or toward doing what you want, this is called imbezzlement).

So concerning your question, I'd suggest creating a force of opponents for the PC types, and then determining how powerfull the organization that hires their services would have to be to afford them. Considering your BBEG is in charge of an entire province, I'd say that is a lot of power, so you can really just go nuts with the henchmen, though most of the funds of the government are tied up n the land itself and in regular army, which won't do much if anything against a mid level PC party.

I have to dissagree with Joe, IMC the party is not as special as in some campaigns. Sure they have unlimited potential, but that doesn't mean their resources rival that of a well-entrenched noble. (by well-entrenched I mean "average", as in not stuck in a border town away from the main family and its resources) Sure the party might have the power to do a hit-and-run against a typical noble, and maybe even get away with it, but if the noble has any warning they can hire other PC types as bodyguards, and just keep hiring more untill the party is dealt with.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I use a lot of social BBEGs. Some, indeed many, are quite capable of defending themselves against ordinary threats, simply because the social structures they operate in leave them open to those threats. Nonetheless, they wouldn't stand a chance against the PCs in a fair fight - they certainly couldn't pull the one against many act some BBEGs prefer.

One of my personal favorite tactics for such villains is to have them be subtle. Behind the scenes. To all intents and purposes, quite diplomatic and open and understanding.

THEY understand that adventurers don't deserve their bum rap, not like the rest of the nobility who despise the PCs. THEY tolerate adventurers' excesses, not like the populace who want to storm the inn just because the party bard deflowered a local maiden. THEY accept that a bit of grave-robbing and tomb-searching must be done for the greater good, not like those stuffy priests who want the PCs burned at the stake for defiling the crypt of St. Whassat.

In short, why not have the BBEG employ the PCs? Not to do anything terribly WRONG, you understand; he has plenty of thugs and assassins to do the dirty work. To do the things they do best.

They never can understand why their enemies seem to get stronger as they level up, though. Funny how it seems like every shipment of surplus legendary gear they sell off to their patron makes their enemies stronger.

Eventually, the PCs will find out, of course. They always do, the nosy gits.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I have to dissagree with Joe, IMC the party is not as special as in some campaigns. Sure they have unlimited potential, but that doesn't mean their resources rival that of a well-entrenched noble. (by well-entrenched I mean "average", as in not stuck in a border town away from the main family and its resources) Sure the party might have the power to do a hit-and-run against a typical noble, and maybe even get away with it, but if the noble has any warning they can hire other PC types as bodyguards, and just keep hiring more untill the party is dealt with.

The key words being "in some campaigns."

For example, in the Berserk series refered to, or the Black Company for that matter, the mercenaries are working for the nobility and expecting the back stabbing.

For me, as a player or a GM, having an enemy that's totally untouchable is a bit... odd in a role playing game where people can cast fire balls and hack through three trolls a round.

Not saying that all campaigns are designed equal. A standard group of adventurers that just does dungeon crawls isn't really going to care a lot about a social bad guy anyway and those that are in similar circumstances, in a standard game where they have access to more magic, and often more specialized combat oriented feats and abilities than the nobles, aren't going to just sit there and take abuse.

 

[Emperor Valerian]

Its sounds like you want to run a Romance of the Three Kingdoms type campaign... I would love to read the story hour of such a group!

I'm running something like that myself, with a Cao Cao-esque BBEG (Noble who is now contending with others for the Imperial Throne, etc.). MoogleEmpMog had a very good suggestion... don't reveal the BBEG for what he is too early. Let the PCs work for him, maybe even think they know him. Have him act really friendly and nice until something comes up and its no longer convenient for him to have them around.

Once that happens, have minions go after the PCs, but not the BBEG just yet. Maybe even have him act understanding when they complain bandits attempted to steal their goods, for example. When you have him finally turn on them, though, it should be through a circumstance where they can't immediately respond (I had mine send them off to deliver a letter. Once they were close to the destination, they got curious and opened it, finding it was their death sentence). It'll let their fear and anger stew until the final showdown...

 

[kigmatzomat]

Suppose you were running a D20 Modern campaign, and instead of a warlord, the BBEG was an evil businessman or a gangster. How do you determine minion levels compared to the BBEG level? Is the BBEG always the highest level character there? What if the BBEG needs an accountant, but he can't find one who is competent enough and loyal? Do you just say they're loyal (like it's a movie) or make one disloyal but too weak to stop working for the BBEG (like... in a movie, I guess)?

Most BBEGs tend to have an undocumented soure of income and have to rely on personal power to acquire minions; hence the wizards. Charm, dominate, and just kidnapping someone from the other side of the world via teleport are great ways to acquire controllable, if not loyal, minions.

Cao Cao, however, has a government and the budget of a governor. The businessman and gangsters both have income streams they can use to buy a dgree of loyalty. They also have a bit of prestige they can share since being a member of the Mob, government or Microsoft brings various perks. There's also enough resources there that doublecrossing them could be bad in a number of non-violent ways; leverage that is hard to prove and defend against.

If you're the anal type you'll want to set a budget, decide how much individuals of each level get paid, set up detailed staff lists, etc. But that doesn't cover the real power of those BBEGs: contacts.Legbreakers in the forms of cops or thugs are easy; it's who the BBEG has in their pocket that makes them powerful.

If the BBEG is the chief of police the PCs will be constantly watched, any altercation will result in them being hauled in to jail (even if not charged), any investigation with a suspect that even vaguely resembles the PCs will result in them being part of the line-up, they'll be pulled over routinely for minor traffic infractions (possibly dating back to the horse & buggy days), etc. The chief of police's contacts will extend to health inspectors, tax collectors, the FBI, and even drug lords.

Now extend that up to a governor, Bill Gates, or Al Capone; individuals with organizations that cover entire states or stretch internationally.

How do the PCs fight such an individual? Exposure. The PCs could try to assasinate them but they'd be the criminals. The only way to win is to show them for the evil overlord they are and strip them of their contacts and assets.

 

[JoeGKushner]

How do the PCs fight such an individual? Exposure. The PCs could try to assasinate them but they'd be the criminals. The only way to win is to show them for the evil overlord they are and strip them of their contacts and assets.

And in a game like the Black Company, assassination isn't goign to make them criminals if they don't get caught.

Or d20 Modern for that matter.

Or any game that doesn't have the evil halo of alignment over the party's head.

If the GM is going to use social monsters, he should be prepeared for players to take 'social' steps which includes various methods of assassination, to take care of them.

 

[kigmatzomat]

And in a game like the Black Company, assassination isn't goign to make them criminals if they don't get caught.

Notice I didn't say "evil." I said criminals. Since assasination in most settings is illegal, there would be an official investigation and with an ostensibly high visibility victim it will be as thorough an investigation as possible.

Additionally, a social BBEG probably has plans in place to avenge himself. More than likely it won't even be in his normal organization since the most likely suspects are the lieutenants. Since the lieutenants will suspect each other you would expect to have at least 4 separate investigations (official, 2 lieutenants, and the vengeance plan). If the BBEG has enough publicity or contacts there may be more.

If the GM is going to use social monsters, he should be prepeared for players to take 'social' steps which includes various methods of assassination, to take care of them.

For the record, the reason I specified a non-assasination response was to give those groups that don't feel killing is the right solution an alternative. All too often people jump right to the "kill the BBEG" which wouldn't work for all types of characters (like police, FBI, or other lawful agencies). Exposure can also disassemble the BBEG's entire support system while assasination may just put someone else in charge.